Unsaved?

[porthos11]

It is also worthy to note, that Once Saved Always Saved is far from the only Protestant position on the possibility of loosing salvation.

Just as in Catholicism, because predestination is part of our teaching (dogma), we do adhere to a form of once-saved-always-saved too. The difference is that man’s free will is always accounted for. If one is of the elect, God’s decree is that this person will enter heaven and that decree will always be fulfilled. It does not mean this person will never fall into mortal sin during his life, but it does mean that this person will die in a state of grace, and therefore attain heaven.

Exactly how grace and man’s free will interact to bring this about, the Church has not defined.

And the Catholic teaching is that the number of the elect is (1) unknown; and (2) immutable. Further, one does not know with full certainty if he is of the elect or not.

But no, we do not subscribe to the linear, accept-Jesus-as-your-Lord-and-Savior-then-you’re-going-to-heaven-no-matter-what kind of OSAS.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Those who have been so sealed and fall away cannot be renewed by repentance for they have partaken of the heavenly gift and knowing the truth have chosen to deny him (Heb 6:4-6).

I have to admit I have pretty much felt hopeless, pretty much my whole life due that verse.

There is no doubt in my mind that I am guilty of that very thing. Strong sense of utter futility for me.

 

[Janderich]

You’re talking about backsliding. You could repent and return to God after backsliding.
If you reject the H.S. or H.G. you have commited the unpardonable sin. This is the only unpardonable sin. I think Hebrews is probably talking about someone who was never saved to begin with.

It’s late here and I don’t have time, but I’d like to know how you think murder cannot be forgiven. You’re going to give me the verse on how anyone who does this and some other things is damned. Maybe you’ll go back to the value of blood in Genesis: Cain, Lamech. I’ll leave it to you to find it.

What I’d like you to do is explain this conflict. How could the bible plainly state that verse and/or concept on the one hand and then also say that the only unpardonable sin is the rejection of the H.S.

What’s your understanding of this?

Fran

But what I speak of is much more than just simple conversion and backsliding. There are many who main gain faith and then lose it and then find it again. Such people are not guilty of denying the Holy Ghost or crucifying the Son of God afresh. They may repent and return to the fold. Even those who murder may repent and after this life be forgiven and receive the kingdom of glory prepared for them.

To be unable to tap into the power of repentance they must have reached the highest heavens and tasted of the heavenly gift. They must obtain the power to pierce the veil and know as they are known as very few on this earth have. They must then, and only then, completely reject the offer of salvation in any form, not because they have questions, but because they freely desire to follow Satan. Of these sons of perdition it is written, "They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them as an agent of growth and development (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p 125). These are the murderer’s and sons of perdition who knowingly cut themselves off from the things of righteousness.

 

[Janderich]

I have to admit I have pretty much felt hopeless, pretty much my whole life due that verse.

There is no doubt in my mind that I am guilty of that very thing. Strong sense of utter futility for me.

I can tell by your few words here that you are not one of the ones Paul is talking about in Hebrews 6. For you desire to improve and anyone who desires to follow the Son, is not lost. This desire comes from the spirit of the Lord which dwells within you and prompts you to do right and to seek a better way. Take courage then that the Lord is on your side and will not leave you comfortless.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

I can tell by your few words here that you are not one of the ones Paul is talking about in Hebrews 6. For you desire to improve and anyone who desires to follow the Son, is not lost. This desire comes from the spirit of the Lord which dwells within you and prompts you to do right and to seek a better way. Take courage then that the Lord is on your side and will not leave you comfortless.

I appreciate your words, but I have battled scrupulosity by entire life. Every time it seems I go to church I sit there with a sense of futility.

The verse says what it says, and I know I am guilty of it. That is why I feel the dread I feel. Yeah, I wish I would have remained faithful and this kind of hell I would not really wish on anyone.

The truth is if I really did desire to improve, I would have remained faithful. Hope, truly is a precious gift.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Just as in Catholicism, because predestination is part of our teaching (dogma), we do adhere to a form of once-saved-always-saved too. The difference is that man’s free will is always accounted for. If one is of the elect, God’s decree is that this person will enter heaven and that decree will always be fulfilled. It does not mean this person will never fall into mortal sin during his life, but it does mean that this person will die in a state of grace, and therefore attain heaven.

Exactly how grace and man’s free will interact to bring this about, the Church has not defined.

And the Catholic teaching is that the number of the elect is (1) unknown; and (2) immutable. Further, one does not know with full certainty if he is of the elect or not.

But no, we do not subscribe to the linear, accept-Jesus-as-your-Lord-and-Savior-then-you’re-going-to-heaven-no-matter-what kind of OSAS.

HUH?

Are you catholic or calvinist??

Too much to get into, but please check out our concept of predestination. OR even better, forget about it and just concentrate on the rest of the story!

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

But what I speak of is much more than just simple conversion and backsliding. There are many who main gain faith and then lose it and then find it again. Such people are not guilty of denying the Holy Ghost or crucifying the Son of God afresh. They may repent and return to the fold. Even those who murder may repent and after this life be forgiven and receive the kingdom of glory prepared for them.

To be unable to tap into the power of repentance they must have reached the highest heavens and tasted of the heavenly gift. They must obtain the power to pierce the veil and know as they are known as very few on this earth have. They must then, and only then, completely reject the offer of salvation in any form, not because they have questions, but because they freely desire to follow Satan. Of these sons of perdition it is written, "They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them as an agent of growth and development (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p 125). These are the murderer’s and sons of perdition who knowingly cut themselves off from the things of righteousness.

OKAY!

 

[frangiuliano115]

I appreciate your words, but I have battled scrupulosity by entire life. Every time it seems I go to church I sit there with a sense of futility.

The verse says what it says, and I know I am guilty of it. That is why I feel the dread I feel. Yeah, I wish I would have remained faithful and this kind of hell I would not really wish on anyone.

The truth is if I really did desire to improve, I would have remained faithful. Hope, truly is a precious gift.

Janderich has given you wise words.

I don’t mean to demean scrupulosity, but I’ll just never understand it.
I’ve been depressed and people that haven’t, don’t understand it. So please know that I have empathy for you. And I do mean empathy.

This is what I don’t understand: When I was depressed, I KNEW I was and tried very hard not to make it affect my responsibilities even though I felt horrible completing them.

Now, you may FEEL like you’re a terrible sinner and God is mad at you, but you must KNOW that you’re not. Isn’t the KNOWING of some comfort?

I’m so sorry this condition exists. Satan uses everything he can to get us down and feeling badly about ourselves - even in normal circumstances.

Don’t give him joy!!

Fran

 

[porthos11]

HUH?

Are you catholic or calvinist??

Too much to get into, but please check out our concept of predestination. OR even better, forget about it and just concentrate on the rest of the story!

Fran

Catholic.

And what I just posted is Catholic, not Calvinist.

Predestination is Catholic teaching, and is not optional for the faithful. It’s part of the deposit of faith. And I have posted plenty of posts on predestination, all faithfully Catholic to the best of my ability.

This is part of the faith and it’s not wise to tell people to “forget” it, especially if apologetics are involved.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Catholic.

And what I just posted is Catholic, not Calvinist.

Predestination is Catholic teaching, and is not optional for the faithful. It’s part of the deposit of faith. And I have posted plenty of posts on predestination, all faithfully Catholic to the best of my ability.

This is part of the faith and it’s not wise to tell people to “forget” it, especially if apologetics are involved.

Hi Porthos 11

Your above post is in response to a comment of mine regarding the following which you posted:

Originally Posted by porthos11 View Post
Just as in Catholicism, because predestination is part of our teaching (dogma), we do adhere to a form of once-saved-always-saved too. The difference is that man’s free will is always accounted for. If one is of the elect, God’s decree is that this person will enter heaven and that decree will always be fulfilled. It does not mean this person will never fall into mortal sin during his life, but it does mean that this person will die in a state of grace, and therefore attain heaven.

Exactly how grace and man’s free will interact to bring this about, the Church has not defined.

And the Catholic teaching is that the number of the elect is (1) unknown; and (2) immutable. Further, one does not know with full certainty if he is of the elect or not.

But no, we do not subscribe to the linear, accept-Jesus-as-your-Lord-and-Savior-then-you’re-going-to-heaven-no-matter-what kind of OSAS.

I challenge anyone to read that sans knowing the writer and then tell me they’re catholic.

What do you mean by a “form of once saved always saved”. You either believe in this or not. The catholic church does not.

Regarding your comment on free will and God’s grace. I believe you’re getting grace mixed up with God’s Providence. It’s God’s Providence that makes free will difficult to understand because He ALLOWS what He wants to happen and it seems that this would take away our free will, thus the difficulty.

Grace, OTOH, is given to us to help us make the right choice (good or evil) when a decision is necessary. There is no mystery here.

You say “if one is of the elect”. This makes it sound as though God has chosen me and that I had nothing to do with it. It sounds very calvinistic. Like I come from a “pool” of the saved and no one else is allowed in.

You also say that heaven is guaranteed to me. What if I decide to reject God in the future? This idea is also taking away my free will.

And lastly, you say:

And the Catholic teaching is that the number of the elect is (1) unknown; and (2) immutable. Further, one does not know with full certainty if he is of the elect or not.

So, there’s even a set number. The JW believe this too! And i can’t know if I’m one of the elect. There goes my thinking I’m saved! There goes my Christian joy in knowing God! And Jesus said He came to give me a life more abundant. What WAS he talking about?? Now, I can’t know if I’ll be saved in the future because I might decide to abandon God, but I can know that right now I am. We are “being” saved.

We do, as catholics, believe in predestination. But it’s not explained right the way you have it. Try to think of it in this way: God predestined us to be saved after the fall of Adam. (well, actually from even before that). He KNOWS beforehand who will accept Him since for Him there is no time. That’s the best way to understand it without getting too deep into one of those mysteries we speak of.

This post isn’t to correct you. Maybe you could just find a way to rephrase what you mean? It’s an important concept.

Fran
P.S. there’s only one kind of OSAS.

 

[TonyBS]

I have some evangelical protestant friends who I discuss faith with. In a discussion about salvation, I asked them if they could be “unsaved,” using the example of a “saved” person committing murder. The question caught them off guard, but their response was that the person probably wasn’t really “saved” to begin with. This didn’t make sense to me, but I couldn’t think of a good way to try and point them in the right direction.
Any suggestions?

To me Romans 2 is clear - One has to 1st believe and accept Christ, then the obligation is to abide within the Law.

As we are Human we will fall short, so continued repentance is required.

We will be unsaved if we rebel against the Holy Spirit of Christ in attempt to make ourselves equal with Him.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[porthos11]

Regarding your comment on free will and God’s grace. I believe you’re getting grace mixed up with God’s Providence. It’s God’s Providence that makes free will difficult to understand because He ALLOWS what He wants to happen and it seems that this would take away our free will, thus the difficulty.

Grace, OTOH, is given to us to help us make the right choice (good or evil) when a decision is necessary. There is no mystery here.

Correct. God’s grace and man’s free will is part of the mystery. But the Church has affirmed the necessity of both for salvation, so there is no question there. When talking about predestionation, there are certain concepts that must be simultaneously affirmed, otherwise, we’re talking heresy.

• The universal desire for salvation
• God’s grace
• God’s sovereignty
• Man’s free will

You say “if one is of the elect”. This makes it sound as though God has chosen me and that I had nothing to do with it. It sounds very calvinistic. Like I come from a “pool” of the saved and no one else is allowed in.

Absolutely, but it’s not Calvinist; it’s Catholic. If we’re to limit thinking of predestination to that of grace first (not yet to glory), this is even more so. No one can merit first grace; it is absolutely the unconditional gift of God. If the “pool” you mentioned are those predestined to grace, then yes, except for God, no one can get in, because no one can merit it.

You also say that heaven is guaranteed to me. What if I decide to reject God in the future? This idea is also taking away my free will.

Now we come to the question of predestination to glory. If you reject God and die in the state of mortal sin, then you are definitely not one of the elect. You are one of the reprobate.

So, there’s even a set number. The JW believe this too! And i can’t know if I’m one of the elect. There goes my thinking I’m saved! There goes my Christian joy in knowing God! And Jesus said He came to give me a life more abundant. What WAS he talking about?? Now, I can’t know if I’ll be saved in the future because I might decide to abandon God, but I can know that right now I am. We are “being” saved.

Yes to the set number, yes to the unknown, but no to the lack of Christian joy. Catholic predestination is not equal to Calvinist double-predestination because in Catholic thought, grace and free will are always included, but just as in Calvinism, God’s sovereignty isn’t excluded either. Further, God’s desire is for the salvation of all, so double-predestination is therefore condemned.

We do, as catholics, believe in predestination. But it’s not explained right the way you have it. Try to think of it in this way: God predestined us to be saved after the fall of Adam. (well, actually from even before that). He KNOWS beforehand who will accept Him since for Him there is no time. That’s the best way to understand it without getting too deep into one of those mysteries we speak of.

This is not the correct definition of Catholic predestination. The number of the elect is fixed, because God’s will is immutable. But it’s not universal (God did not predestine all; some are reprobate). It’s also not mere knowledge; it’s actually an active, sovereign decree and it always factors in grace and man’s free will.

 

[porthos11]

This post isn’t to correct you. Maybe you could just find a way to rephrase what you mean? It’s an important concept.

Fran
P.S. there’s only one kind of OSAS.

If some of it sounds Calvinist, it’s because Calvinism has it partially right, especially in terms of unconditioned predestination to glory (which is acceptable in Catholic thought). The Catholic teaching on predestination are stated as such (Ott, FOCD).

God, by an eternal resolve of his will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness (de fide).

• How grace and free will work together has not been defined. The Thomist/Banez camp says God, for no reason than his sovereign will, elects those for salvation and then gives those graces he knows they will freely respond to and thereby merit heaven (unconditioned predestination to glory ante praevisa merita, i.e. without consideration of foreseen merits)
• The Molinists say God, through his middle knowledge sees how every man responds to any given grace, and for no reason than his sovereign will, lays out a fixed order of grace. Just as with the divine will, this order of grace is unchanging. Those he then sees will respond to that grace to merit heaven, he predestines to heaven (conditioned predestination, post et propter praevisa merita, i.e. in consideration of foreseen merits. I personally lean towards this school of thought).
• The Church has not ruled or defined on any particular school of thought, but has ruled that both positions can be held without fear of heresy.

God, by an eternal resolve of his will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection (de fide).

• If God were to predestine people to hell without consideration of their foreseen demerits, this is Calvinist double-predestination and is rightfully condemned.
• But if this is done in light of certain men’s free rejection of his grace, then this is a conditioned positive reprobation, and is the Catholic position.

And the key difference between the orthodox Catholic understanding of the fixed number of the elect (and reprobate) and heretical OSAS is that we do not know if we are of the elect, barring any special divine revelation. This is why we must continue to use our free will to respond to grace and persevere to the end. And even though we cannot know with certainty who are of the elect, the Church teaches there are strong signs that one is elect, such as a love for God and his Church, persistence in virtues, love of the Eucharist, devotion to the Blessed Mother.

Predestination is one of the most difficult and interesting theologies of the Catholic Church. But just because some Calvinist thought is compatible with Catholicism does not require us to reject predestination outright. In fact, to do so would be heretical, since it’s part of the deposit of faith.

 

[frangiuliano115]

HELLO PATHOS 11

Just to let you know that I’ve read your post.

There’s too much to address. Predestination is very complicated as you’ve stated. God’s foreknowledge has a lot to do with this. The problem comes in understanding if He does anything to change our choices. If He changes our choices then we don’t have free will.
If He sets up situations which would make us pick a certain way, that would be like directing a play and God is the director.

Theologians have battled this out. It’s intricate and if I address my feelings at all it’s going to have to wait till Monday.

Dinner time in this part of the world and tomorrow is Sunday - too busy.

The only thing I can say right now is that maybe YOU understand predestination and have accepted the way you understand it. But when you put forth the idea the way you did, it does sound calvinistic.

The way you described it in your first post made John 3:16 be impossible or at the very least, of no sense.

Like Judas. He ended up hanging himself. Jesus told him it would have been better had he never been born. Then why didn’t Jesus stop him from going to the sanhedrin? Because it was all meant to happen - just that Jesus knew it. With whatever knowledge He had. All this knowledge stuff is too philosophical too. God has knowledge, we think we know if it comes from the top the middle or the bottom??

We have questions, so then we try to figure out God. Some people in bible study were pretty horrified at this idea a couple of years ago.

You bring up grace. I see it more as God making a situation such that the person would pick a given. I have a problem with that. We’re at play acting again. I wish you’d keep the problem to free will vs. God’s Providence. It would make things easier!

Anyway, it’s interesting. I guess we could get into it a bit. I h ave to look up Molinists and Thomas/Banez - can’t remember too much about them.

Monday.

Fran

 

[porthos11]

HELLO PATHOS 11

Just to let you know that I’ve read your post.

There’s too much to address. Predestination is very complicated as you’ve stated. God’s foreknowledge has a lot to do with this. The problem comes in understanding if He does anything to change our choices. If He changes our choices then we don’t have free will.
If He sets up situations which would make us pick a certain way, that would be like directing a play and God is the director.

Theologians have battled this out. It’s intricate and if I address my feelings at all it’s going to have to wait till Monday.

Dinner time in this part of the world and tomorrow is Sunday - too busy.

The only thing I can say right now is that maybe YOU understand predestination and have accepted the way you understand it. But when you put forth the idea the way you did, it does sound calvinistic.

The way you described it in your first post made John 3:16 be impossible or at the very least, of no sense.

Like Judas. He ended up hanging himself. Jesus told him it would have been better had he never been born. Then why didn’t Jesus stop him from going to the sanhedrin? Because it was all meant to happen - just that Jesus knew it. With whatever knowledge He had. All this knowledge stuff is too philosophical too. God has knowledge, we think we know if it comes from the top the middle or the bottom??

We have questions, so then we try to figure out God. Some people in bible study were pretty horrified at this idea a couple of years ago.

You bring up grace. I see it more as God making a situation such that the person would pick a given. I have a problem with that. We’re at play acting again. I wish you’d keep the problem to free will vs. God’s Providence. It would make things easier!

Anyway, it’s interesting. I guess we could get into it a bit. I h ave to look up Molinists and Thomas/Banez - can’t remember too much about them.

Monday.

Fran

The interactions of grace vis-a-vis free will is part of the mystery, but since the Church affirms it, so must we. If we like to believe that God, in his omniscience gives the necessary graces he knows we will FREELY respond to, so as to secure the infallible decree (again, not mere foreknowledge) the Church certainly permits it (Thomism).

It only sounds Calvinistic because Calvinism includes thought that is compatible with Catholicism, especially the Thomist strain. Calvinism becomes a problem when free will is denied and double-predestination is affirmed. But unconditioned positive predestination is a permissible position for Catholics to hold. But Catholicism has wrestled with predestination long before the Calvinists came around.

But the minimalistic opinion that permeates CAF (likely as a knee-jerk response to Calvinism) is to merely reduce predestination to God’s foreknowledge, but this is an error. Predestination involves an active action of God’s will and Providence; it must be affirmed that God actually decrees the salvation or reprobation of men.

The Church’s orthodox position is the two summary statements I posted earlier. Whether or not the Thomist or Molinist position is correct, the Church has not defined, and we are permitted to hold either.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

The interactions of grace vis-a-vis free will is part of the mystery, but since the Church affirms it, so must we. If we like to believe that God, in his omniscience gives the necessary graces he knows we will FREELY respond to, so as to secure the infallible decree (again, not mere foreknowledge) the Church certainly permits it (Thomism).

It only sounds Calvinistic because Calvinism includes thought that is compatible with Catholicism, especially the Thomist strain. Calvinism becomes a problem when free will is denied and double-predestination is affirmed. But unconditioned positive predestination is a permissible position for Catholics to hold. But Catholicism has wrestled with predestination long before the Calvinists came around.

But the minimalistic opinion that permeates CAF (likely as a knee-jerk response to Calvinism) is to merely reduce predestination to God’s foreknowledge, but this is an error. Predestination involves an active action of God’s will and Providence; it must be affirmed that God actually decrees the salvation or reprobation of men.

The Church’s orthodox position is the two summary statements I posted earlier. Whether or not the Thomist or Molinist position is correct, the Church has not defined, and we are permitted to hold either.

I am sorry for this, but are we to believe that God pushes people away from salvation? I guess I can understand that and it would explain a lot to me.

Personally, I believe there are a very select few destined to be with the Saints. I could be wrong.

However, when it comes to predestination (I do believe it is true), I personally do not see any reason for me personally to “fight the good fight.”

It really does not matter one bit, does it? Not being sarcastic, but I get why people fall into despair. Most of my life I have known deep down inside that I have been on the “outside” if you will.

One of many reasons why I have stopped attending mass is the thought of predestiny. Most of all, it is more to do with the fact that I cannot walk the straight and narrow that we are all required to walk.

Just cannot do it. Oh, I may have a decent day, but I cannot go 3 days in a row let alone the rest of my life.

 

[Bonnie]

However, when it comes to predestination (I do believe it is true), I personally do not see any reason for me personally to “fight the good fight.”

It really does not matter one bit, does it? Not being sarcastic, but I get why people fall into despair. Most of my life I have known deep down inside that I have been on the “outside” if you will.

Which is why I don’t believe in predestination. If it were true, I’d give up, too. What would be the point of trying if no matter how much you pray, work, and believe, you end up in hell anyway? Or if you lived a debauched life but were predestined to heaven? That just makes no sense to me.

OTOH, if God “makes” us behave/live is a way to “deserve” heaven or hell, then we have no free will. So that also would incline me to give up.

What I believe is that we have free will to act as we wish, and we do the best we can. I really don’t think God expects more of us.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Which is why I don’t believe in predestination. If it were true, I’d give up, too. What would be the point of trying if no matter what how much you pray, work, and believe, you end up in hell anyway? Or if you lived a debauched life but were predestined to heaven? That just makes no sense to me.

I do believe in predestination. Make no mistake, my perdition is of my own choosing. I think we do have choice.

It is not easy for to deal with. The simple truth for me is I am a disgrace. Always really have been.

The best I could do as far doing Gods will, is maybe (just maybe) for about 20 minutes after I go to confession. How people are able to make a conversion and follow Christ for the rest of their lives with out willfully sinning at any point is not something I can relate to.

This has been something I have pretty much known about myself since I was a kid. Always messing up. There are those that would have been better off never being born. Jesus even says that.

I seriously doubt that is the case with you. I seriously doubt it.

 

[porthos11]

I am sorry for this, but are we to believe that God pushes people away from salvation? I guess I can understand that and it would explain a lot to me.

No. As I said, the proper Catholic understanding of predestination and reprobation requires us to always factor in the Universal Desire for Salvation, in addition to God’s sovereignty, God’s grace, and man’s free will. God “pushing” away people from salvation is equivalent to Calvinist double-predestination, and is heretical.

Personally, I believe there are a very select few destined to be with the Saints. I could be wrong.

The Church has not defined this, and some saints were of this opinion based on a literalistic reading of the “narrow road” passage. I do not hold on to the same opinion, because I do not consider it sound to think that God’s kingdom is larger than that of the devil. I don’t believe the God’s providence is so weak that majority of humanity will reject him. But there is latitude, and neither opinion is condemned.

However, when it comes to predestination (I do believe it is true), I personally do not see any reason for me personally to “fight the good fight.”

It really does not matter one bit, does it? Not being sarcastic, but I get why people fall into despair. Most of my life I have known deep down inside that I have been on the “outside” if you will.

No, you have not known deep down. As with predestination, reprobation is known to man. You may think you feel it, but it’s not an indication of reprobation. God gives sufficient grace to everyone. Perhaps it’s depression, perhaps it’s something else. But you do not know. None of us do, no matter what we feel.

Therefore, this is not a reason to stop fighting the good fight. Again, and I cannot stress this enough, predestination accounts for man’s free will. If you end up in hell, it’s not because God had decreed you to go there without considering your free rejection of his will. Who knows what grace is given you between now and the day of your death?

One of many reasons why I have stopped attending mass is the thought of predestiny. Most of all, it is more to do with the fact that I cannot walk the straight and narrow that we are all required to walk.

Predestination is not taught by the Church to place people in despair, and if anything, it’s to encourage them to persevere in grace. I don’t know if I’m predestined to glory or not. But at this point, I don’t care. I will, by God’s grace, strive to persevere.

Just cannot do it. Oh, I may have a decent day, but I cannot go 3 days in a row let alone the rest of my life.

Are you suffering depression?

Perhaps public forums like these are not the best place for you. You scare me, and I think you need to see a professional, i.e. a doctor.

It sounds like you are, and as I’m not a doctor, I think I won’t address you further, as I may end up causing more harm than good. I will just leave you with this: God desires you to be with him, and is giving you grace. If you accept that grace, you will be with him. If you reject it, you will go to hell. This is true for every single one of us. But the choice is ours, and it’s a choice that’s freely made.

 

[spiderweb]

In regards to Hebrews 6:4-6:

I have to admit I have pretty much felt hopeless, pretty much my whole life due that verse.

There is no doubt in my mind that I am guilty of that very thing. Strong sense of utter futility for me.

It is necessary to view this passage in Hebrews in the context that Paul throughout Hebrews is addressing this to Jewish Christians.

Basically what he is saying is if they fall away from the Faith after having partaken of it, and return to their Jewish practices of animal sacrifices, which were for a penance to them, they make a mockery of Christ. He was crucified once and for all people and times.

The penance being spoken of is not sacramental penance of confession. And he is not saying that Christians who have fallen away cannot be reconciled to God through sacramental penance. This is specifically addressing Jewish Christians who if they fall away there is no reconciliation to God through the animal sacrifices.

Hope that’s helpful