Unsaved?

[eazyduzit]

I find it bizarre that you state in a previous post that " I don’t base my faith on any MAN"…yet your entire Faith is based on accounts relayed to you by MEN in the form of Gospels…


.

I agree with Fran. The blble claims that it’s authors wrote as they were moved by the Spirit. It was not that God inspired their minds, but He gave them inspired or God breathed words.
In addition, if you read Acts, it frequently says that God Himself confirmed His word with signs and wonders following. Even the miracle of the tongues in ch. 2 was a confirmation in that everyone heard in his own language.

This is a solid foundation for me.

 

[Servant19]

I agree with Fran. The blble claims that it’s authors wrote as they were moved by the Spirit. It was not that God inspired their minds, but He gave them inspired or God breathed words.
In addition, if you read Acts, it frequently says that God Himself confirmed His word with signs and wonders following. Even the miracle of the tongues in ch. 2 was a confirmation in that everyone heard in his own language.

This is a solid foundation for me.

Personally, and I think this is fair for all to say (unless you’re biased) I think Krishna was far more of a miraculous, non-human Person than Jesus.

Krishna performed the following miracles, and many others like it:

• When Lord Krishna was 7 years old, he lifted a mountain (26 miles in perimeter) and held it up with his one hand for 7 days. Witnessed by tens of thousands of people who were standing underneath the mountain.
• Lord Krishna showed in his mouth, the whole Universe.

Resurrection is eeeeeeaaaaaassssssyyyyyyyy

.

 

[Servant19]

How did you answer so fast???

I explained it in my post.

I can’t spend anymore time here right now - must go out.

It has to do with the entire birth story in Luke 2.
It has to do with his forgiving sin. How does a man forgive sin?
it has to do with the RESURRECTION. Was it true or not??

Why can’t you understand thisj??? Did Krishna die and come back from the dead?

Am I going to have to take the time to google Krishna and find out a lot of things about him so I can speak to you?

NO. Because Krishna and all the other prophets never resurrected!

I don’t know what more there is to be said about this. What exactly do you know that Krisha said that makes you think he thought he was God? I told you about Jesus, you tell me about Krishna.

Of course all these prophets were very the same. You and I are very alike. But Krishn and Jesus never spoke to each other - so it’s not like they had a conspiracy going. So were they exactly the same? No. For the reasons I’ve already given.

Will not be back till later on.

Fran

Dear Fran,

Please read my post above this one so I can help you with your competition between Divine Persons.

.

 

[Padres1969]

I’m usually pretty good at coming up with scripture that could be used in different circumstances, but in this case I can’t. I’m in a hurry this morning, but if I think of anything I’ll post again.

You’re right, of course. You know, some go to these comix things and they go to have fun and pass a day and are believers and God loving people. We can’t just stop living. OTOH, some go and are very influenced by demonic inspiration and very far from God.
The costumes have a lot to do with it too. (they dress up like the comic character they like here). So you see, you can’t see man’s heart - which is what I said previously.

Buddha tried giving everything up after he saw the misery in the world. But even he decided it wasn’t a good thing! God gave us the world to enjoy, or why create it at all?
He means for us to live our life fully but to His glory.

You know all this.

The only thought that comes to mind is that these people really enjoy preaching! Is that permissible?? Are they preaching to further the Kingdom, or are they preaching because they enjoy it so much? How could they really tell the difference? To them, is this like going to Disneyland? Just a thought.

Oh. How about this: Jesus said, “By this shall all men know you are my disciples, that you love one another.” John 13:35

“Love God with all your heart and soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
Mathew 22:37

How are they showing God’s love by condemning everyone? That doesn’t draw people to God but pushes them away. The reason for preaching is to show God’s love and bring people to understand that they are sinners and in need of God - not to condemn. Even Jesus didn’t condemn. They’re doing more harm than good…

As far as Joel Olsteen is concerned - I do have a bit of a problem with him. He smiles too much!! Joyce Meyers is the same. A bit to psychological for me. All they say is true but they never preach the cross, the need for salvation, the reason Jesus died.

Fran

Thanks Fran, I’ll have to remember those passages if I ever do engage them as they all seem very appropriate responses to their overly vitriolic form of condemnation preaching. And you point about them preaching so much to the point that they may like preaching for preaching sake is also a good one.

As for Osteen, yeah I’ll have to agree with you there. He just comes off as fake to me. His message is as much self help mumbo jumbo as it does any message about Christ. I believe the term “light on theology” has been applied to him and it’s not exactly an unfounded accusation. But that’s a bit off topic so I’ll just leave it at that.

 

[frangiuliano115]

frangiuliano115;13394851:

And, herein lies the difference between christianity and every other religion. We believe Jesus is God. Seems to me He leaves no wiggle room there. Listen to me - either he was God or He was a crazy man. I insist on this. Jesus forgave people’s sins. The Jews believed only God could forgive sin. So Jesus must have thought He was God? Only a crazy person thinks he’s God. Did Krishna or Buddha forgive sins? No. And they never claimed to.

Buddha was a man and never claimed to be God. I don’t need Professor google to know that. Krishna thought he was some kind of divine person, but he never said he was God. Muhammad never claimed to be God. I

Jesus claimed to be God. In Exodus 3:14 God refers to Himself to Moses as “I AM”.
In John 8:58 Jesus refers to Himself as I AM. Some pharisees and Jews that were with Him became very angry and started to throw stones at Him. Why? Because He was claiming to be God. He claimed to be the great I AM - or Yahweh. God.

Also see John 10.33. “For good works we do not stone you, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

Another important passage is

I went back and read #54…it had no information concerning NT authorship.

I’m sorry you don’t get the point. There’s nothing in my post no. 54 about NT authorship.

What I’m questioning is how you could read that and then talk to me about authorship of the gospels.

Here are our posts: 54, 55, 58, 62, 64

I can’t add anything to that. If you want to talk about gospel authorship, I’m willing but it’s way off this thread and I’m sure you’ll find that it doesn’t matter - after reading no. 54 and you could also check out no. 64 again. it’s pretty clear how I feel about the gospel writers.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Dear Fran,

Please read my post above this one so I can help you with your competition between Divine Persons.

.

Hi,

You want to make this a competition between divine persons?

I think that would be belittling them!

Out all day and tired. I’ll check in tomorrow. Just can’t deal with going back and forth to posts right now on such an important matter.

That image at your signature line is making me think of heaven. Is it a real place?

Fran

 

[Seekerjn316]

Seekerjn316;13399469:

I’m sorry you don’t get the point. There’s nothing in my post no. 54 about NT authorship.

What I’m questioning is how you could read that and then talk to me about authorship of the gospels.

Here are our posts: 54, 55, 58, 62, 64

I can’t add anything to that. If you want to talk about gospel authorship, I’m willing but it’s way off this thread and I’m sure you’ll find that it doesn’t matter - after reading no. 54 and you could also check out no. 64 again. it’s pretty clear how I feel about the gospel writers.

Fran

Fran, I responded to your assertion that there were only two answers to the question of Jesus, I stated that was not so and here is another explanation, which took into account the purported words of Jesus claiming he was divine…it is extremely doubtful Jesus said anything of the kind…HOWEVER his followers soon made the claim putting their concluded beliefs in written form…the gospels are not biogralhies, they are “explanations” of sorts by the first generation of believers what THEY had come to believe about Jesus…they also needed liturgical texts to be used in conjunction with the Hebrew scriptures retelling Israel religious history with Jesus as the main character instead of Moses, Joshua , Samuel, David, and other heroes from Israel past.They concluded NOW Jesus of Nazareth is The Place where God was met, .they could use certain gospel passages to be read along side those scripture reading read each Sabbath and Holy Feasts.

it was after the division between Jews and Christians around 70s christianity moved away from being just another Jewish sect to a religion all its own. The Pharisees leaders that were salvaging 2 hat they could of their own faith, they no longer had the Temple, the Temple was tied up in their identity as a people…and those Jews of the former Jewish sect who were called Christian, we’re " cast out of the synagogues", “Christianity” was botn.

my other co,net had to do with your assertion “we” were calling the apostles “liars” …how can they be “liars” when none of the original 12 wrote any part of what was to become the New Testament.

 

[TonyBS]

You shall know a tree by its fruit.

We’re never going to agree, but it’s nice to exchange ideas.

You know how I feel about putting Jesus into the mix. It can’t be done, but we can’t get into that again.

Good day,
Fran

Good day to you Fran, I see you have been busy with Servant

I always Love putting Jesus into the Mix as there is no Life without Jesus.

You have talked above about Fruit but also you have talked about and posted this quote

“In John 8:58 Jesus refers to Himself as I AM” (Please note the following then I have put a comment at the end that can be considered}

It may be of interest that the Life and Sacrifice of Christ was unfolded again in the Life and Sacrifice of the Bab.

Anyone reading the martyrdoms of both Jesus and the Báb, will notice some very intriguing similarities…

1. The age of the Báb and length of His mission are similar to those of Jesus.
2. Both had farcical trials with predictable conclusions.
3. The Báb is put to death on the eve of Ramadan, exactly as Jesus is martyred on the eve of Sabbath and the Passover, for the same reasons.
4. The Báb being paraded through town on an (***) (Donkey) recalls Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem.
5. The Báb met His martyrdom at noon, which is the time Jesus was taken away to His death in John.
6. Both are suspended in the air, have one fellow-companion going to Paradise, and the same words are uttered for their going there.
7. The Báb instructs His disciples to deny their faith, much as Jesus’ disciples fled and denied Him in order for His faith to continue.
8. Both the Báb and Jesus demonstrate a power over martyrdom that shows it was a voluntary death.
9. Both are struck by a sword / spear.
10. The disappearance of the Báb before the people, is similar to Jesus’ disappearance from the tomb.
11. A long darkness (and other natural wonders) follows the deaths of both the Báb and Jesus.
    12)Guards are posted over both the Báb’s and Jesus’ bodies so that their bodies are not taken, but both fail in their jobs.
    13)The bodies of both the Báb and Jesus are both found disappeared on the third day.
    In both cases a report is spread abroad to cover the disappearance.

Now Point 2 is of interest because at this trial, of which I quote “The avowed purpose of that convocation was to arraign the Prisoner, and deliberate on the steps to be taken for the extirpation of His so-called heresy”.

I continue the quote "the Báb, having seated Himself in the chief place which had been reserved for the Valí-‘Ahd (the heir to the throne), gave, in ringing tones, His celebrated answer to the question put to Him by the President of that assembly. “I am,” He exclaimed,** “I am, I am the Promised One! I am the One Whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at Whose mention you have risen, Whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of Whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten.** Verily, I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word, and to pledge allegiance to My person.”

I post this as it is relevant to “Unsaved”.

Can you see the potential in the above information, the potential that we have a lot more to consider in life what it means to be Saved?

This in no way means that I ask you not to Love Christ and Continue in Service to Christ. The point I am making is that to belittle another Faith in any way actually belittles ones own Faith in the same way.

How is this so? Well what I have found they have more in common than we give credit unto. Thus if we belittle a Faith because of this or that. Then the same can be used in return by others against the Faith we Follow.

In the end it is to God we turn and God we serve by serving our fellow man, may we all do it in Love and Unity of Positive actions.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Hi,

You want to make this a competition between divine persons?

I think that would be belittling them!

Out all day and tired. I’ll check in tomorrow. Just can’t deal with going back and forth to posts right now on such an important matter.

That image at your signature line is making me think of heaven. Is it a real place?

Fran

Dear Fran - I know that Servant would agree with you that “I think that would be belittling them”!

I think my post above has covered where Servant was heading to on this aspect or line of discussion. The point being, that to say that Christ is better then all as for these Special Reasons, is a line or argument that can be shown to be not that special.

Can we agree that Christ is Special because of His Love for Us, His Sacrifice for Us and the Promises He gave to us. It is up to each of us to accept How Special That all is and put it into practice in our lives.

The image Servant has provided is the Baha’i House of Worship in New Deli India. It is an amazing structure and the Gardens amazing as well. many Millions visit each year.

There is also an amazing one being erected now in Chile.

Regards Tony

 

[frangiuliano115]

frangiuliano115;13400784:

Fran, I responded to your assertion that there were only two answers to the question of Jesus, I stated that was not so and here is another explanation, which took into account the purported words of Jesus claiming he was divine…it is extremely doubtful Jesus said anything of the kind…HOWEVER his followers soon made the claim putting their concluded beliefs in written form…the gospels are not biogralhies, they are “explanations” of sorts by the first generation of believers what THEY had come to believe about Jesus…they also needed liturgical texts to be used in conjunction with the Hebrew scriptures retelling Israel religious history with Jesus as the main character instead of Moses, Joshua , Samuel, David, and other heroes from Israel past.They concluded NOW Jesus of Nazareth is The Place where God was met, .they could use certain gospel passages to be read along side those scripture reading read each Sabbath and Holy Feasts.

it was after the division between Jews and Christians around 70s christianity moved away from being just another Jewish sect to a religion all its own. The Pharisees leaders that were salvaging 2 hat they could of their own faith, they no longer had the Temple, the Temple was tied up in their identity as a people…and those Jews of the former Jewish sect who were called Christian, we’re " cast out of the synagogues", “Christianity” was botn.

my other co,net had to do with your assertion “we” were calling the apostles “liars” …how can they be “liars” when none of the original 12 wrote any part of what was to become the New Testament.

I know what you mean, Seeker. I’m saying that you don’t understadn MY position.

Anybody who has studied the bible as a “book”, for example, in a university religious study class, will know exactly what you’re saying in your first pp.

Another way to say this would be to understand the gospels as being written in such a way as to prove that Jesus was the awaited Messiah and to show this by “fixing” or altering His story to fit o.t. prophecy.

Christians know that the bible is not a scientific book or a biography. It was written for a specific purpose. To let us know that God created everything, that we sin, that we need a savior and that Jesus is that savior.

But, now, try to understand ME. I gave you the Ghandi allegory. I can’t do better than that. If I can’t trust the gospel writers, or Paul or James or Peter or ANYONE who may have written the letters, then my religion is a false religion, I’ve been fooled and am following the wrong person!

What I’m saying is that Jesus/Ghandi was alive and people knew Jesus and Ghandi. If anyone wrote such outrageous things about either one of them 20 to 60 years after their death, there would have been an outcry. If my allegorical book about Ghandi had been written, don’t you think there would have been an outcry? Ditto for Jesus. No wrting like that has been found.

You can NOT agree with me, but at least tell me you understand me!

One of the first things you learn in theology for christianity, is that it is a reasonable religion, based on reason, and based on the fact that you could TRUST who wrote the N.T. Otherwise, it’s all false!

If you want to believe it’s all myth, that’s okay. But please confirm to me that then it would mean my religion is wrong –

BTW, what does your religious affiliation mean?

Fran
P.S. Scholars and theologians accept that John the Apostle wrote the gospel of John. There’s some doubt, but I believe Mathew, or Levi, wrote the gospel of Mathew, as do many.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Dear Fran - I know that Servant would agree with you that “I think that would be belittling them”!

I think my post above has covered where Servant was heading to on this aspect or line of discussion. The point being, that to say that Christ is better then all as for these Special Reasons, is a line or argument that can be shown to be not that special.

Can we agree that Christ is Special because of His Love for Us, His Sacrifice for Us and the Promises He gave to us. It is up to each of us to accept How Special That all is and put it into practice in our lives.

The image Servant has provided is the Baha’i House of Worship in New Deli India. It is an amazing structure and the Gardens amazing as well. many Millions visit each year.

There is also an amazing one being erected now in Chile.

Regards Tony

Good morning Tony,

This post is going to have to be for Servant too, for time’s sake.

As you well noted, I certainly do not want to have a competition between “Gods”, as I stated to Servant. And for the reason that I stated.

I’m not comparing Jesus to Krishna or to the Bab. What I’m saying is that I believe Jesus to be God and I believe Christianity to be the true religion.

What I’m saying is that they cannot ALL be right. I can’t wrap my brain around how you think. I DO believe that there is light and truth in each religion. (this is too complicated). I do believe that if one truly seeks God, God will be found. I do believe that there are different roads to God because not everyone has heard of Christ. I have a difficult time understanding how one could have the “light” and be faced with Jesus and not accept him - in a christian way, as a disciple of Christ.

Let’s see if I can be clearer on why all religions cannot be correct. I have to start by saying that I have a really big disadvantage over you and Servant because you seem to know a lot about christianity and I know nothing about your faith.

Do you believe in life after death? I think you explained that you do. Okay. So what happens after death?? Some religions believe you go to heaven or hell. Some religions believe life just continues in the state you lived it on earth. Some believe in reincarnation and that you come back with the same soul.

Which is it? If you pick one, doesn’t that mean you agree with THAT particular religion?

I believe God will judge us by the light we have been given. But you know so many religions, how will you be judged? Just by the general light that is in each religion alone?

And, if you are “saved”, can you lose that salvation? How?

I absolutely refuse to google Krishna or anything else I discuss on these threads. In fact, I think it’s rather silly (not to use stronger words) to think you could learn about any religion on google!

Regards to you and Servant
Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Good day to you Fran, I see you have been busy with Servant

I always Love putting Jesus into the Mix as there is no Life without Jesus.

You have talked above about Fruit but also you have talked about and posted this quote

“In John 8:58 Jesus refers to Himself as I AM” (Please note the following then I have put a comment at the end that can be considered}

It may be of interest that the Life and Sacrifice of Christ was unfolded again in the Life and Sacrifice of the Bab.

Anyone reading the martyrdoms of both Jesus and the Báb, will notice some very intriguing similarities…

1. The age of the Báb and length of His mission are similar to those of Jesus.
2. Both had farcical trials with predictable conclusions.
3. The Báb is put to death on the eve of Ramadan, exactly as Jesus is martyred on the eve of Sabbath and the Passover, for the same reasons.
4. The Báb being paraded through town on an (***) (Donkey) recalls Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem.
5. The Báb met His martyrdom at noon, which is the time Jesus was taken away to His death in John.
6. Both are suspended in the air, have one fellow-companion going to Paradise, and the same words are uttered for their going there.
7. The Báb instructs His disciples to deny their faith, much as Jesus’ disciples fled and denied Him in order for His faith to continue.
8. Both the Báb and Jesus demonstrate a power over martyrdom that shows it was a voluntary death.
9. Both are struck by a sword / spear.
10. The disappearance of the Báb before the people, is similar to Jesus’ disappearance from the tomb.
11. A long darkness (and other natural wonders) follows the deaths of both the Báb and Jesus.
    12)Guards are posted over both the Báb’s and Jesus’ bodies so that their bodies are not taken, but both fail in their jobs.
    13)The bodies of both the Báb and Jesus are both found disappeared on the third day.
    In both cases a report is spread abroad to cover the disappearance.

Now Point 2 is of interest because at this trial, of which I quote “The avowed purpose of that convocation was to arraign the Prisoner, and deliberate on the steps to be taken for the extirpation of His so-called heresy”.

I continue the quote "the Báb, having seated Himself in the chief place which had been reserved for the Valí-‘Ahd (the heir to the throne), gave, in ringing tones, His celebrated answer to the question put to Him by the President of that assembly. “I am,” He exclaimed,** “I am, I am the Promised One! I am the One Whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at Whose mention you have risen, Whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of Whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten.** Verily, I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word, and to pledge allegiance to My person.”

I post this as it is relevant to “Unsaved”.

Can you see the potential in the above information, the potential that we have a lot more to consider in life what it means to be Saved?

This in no way means that I ask you not to Love Christ and Continue in Service to Christ. The point I am making is that to belittle another Faith in any way actually belittles ones own Faith in the same way.

How is this so? Well what I have found they have more in common than we give credit unto. Thus if we belittle a Faith because of this or that. Then the same can be used in return by others against the Faith we Follow.

In the end it is to God we turn and God we serve by serving our fellow man, may we all do it in Love and Unity of Positive actions.

Regards Tony

I wanted to thank you for the above. I know it took time and work. Maybe I should google some stuff!!

Re the more in life than being saved. What could be more important? Saved just means that you know God and are living for Him, hopefully in your words and actions.

Yes. These posts cannot go on forever. In fact, I’ve never done this before. If you answer my above post, I guess after that it’ll have to come to an end, as all good things do.

Fran

 

[TonyBS]

I wanted to thank you for the above. I know it took time and work. Maybe I should google some stuff!!

Re the more in life than being saved. What could be more important? Saved just means that you know God and are living for Him, hopefully in your words and actions.

Yes. These posts cannot go on forever. In fact, I’ve never done this before. If you answer my above post, I guess after that it’ll have to come to an end, as all good things do.

Fran

Yes Fran I agree, but please note I said “we have a lot more to consider in life what it means to be Saved”?

I did not say “more in life than being saved”

There is a universe of meaning between those two quotes

God Bless and let us Love Christ Together

Regards Tony

 

[frangiuliano115]

Yes Fran I agree, but please note I said “we have a lot more to consider in life what it means to be Saved”?

I did not say “more in life than being saved”

There is a universe of meaning between those two quotes

God Bless and let us Love Christ Together

Regards Tony

Hi Tony,

You don’t have to answer my post if you don’t want to, it’s okay, but I just wanted to let you know that there is another post on the previous page.

God bless you
Fran

 

[Servant19]

Good morning Tony,

This post is going to have to be for Servant too, for time’s sake.

As you well noted, I certainly do not want to have a competition between “Gods”, as I stated to Servant. And for the reason that I stated.

I’m not comparing Jesus to Krishna or to the Bab. What I’m saying is that I believe Jesus to be God and I believe Christianity to be the true religion.

What I’m saying is that they cannot ALL be right. I can’t wrap my brain around how you think. I DO believe that there is light and truth in each religion. (this is too complicated). I do believe that if one truly seeks God, God will be found. I do believe that there are different roads to God because not everyone has heard of Christ. I have a difficult time understanding how one could have the “light” and be faced with Jesus and not accept him - in a christian way, as a disciple of Christ.

Let’s see if I can be clearer on why all religions cannot be correct. I have to start by saying that I have a really big disadvantage over you and Servant because you seem to know a lot about christianity and I know nothing about your faith.

Do you believe in life after death? I think you explained that you do. Okay. So what happens after death?? Some religions believe you go to heaven or hell. Some religions believe life just continues in the state you lived it on earth. Some believe in reincarnation and that you come back with the same soul.

Which is it? If you pick one, doesn’t that mean you agree with THAT particular religion?

I believe God will judge us by the light we have been given. But you know so many religions, how will you be judged? Just by the general light that is in each religion alone?

And, if you are “saved”, can you lose that salvation? How?

I absolutely refuse to google Krishna or anything else I discuss on these threads. In fact, I think it’s rather silly (not to use stronger words) to think you could learn about any religion on google!

Regards to you and Servant
Fran

Dear Fran

Thankyou too for your time in this dialogue

Have you considered that in creation, as quantity increases the Godly attributes and quality decreases in degree?

This is in relation to your statement “they can’t all be right”

.

 

[TonyBS]

Good morning Tony,

This post is going to have to be for Servant too, for time’s sake.

As you well noted, I certainly do not want to have a competition between “Gods”, as I stated to Servant. And for the reason that I stated.

I’m not comparing Jesus to Krishna or to the Bab. What I’m saying is that I believe Jesus to be God and I believe Christianity to be the true religion.

What I’m saying is that they cannot ALL be right. I can’t wrap my brain around how you think. I DO believe that there is light and truth in each religion. (this is too complicated). I do believe that if one truly seeks God, God will be found. I do believe that there are different roads to God because not everyone has heard of Christ. I have a difficult time understanding how one could have the “light” and be faced with Jesus and not accept him - in a christian way, as a disciple of Christ.

Let’s see if I can be clearer on why all religions cannot be correct. I have to start by saying that I have a really big disadvantage over you and Servant because you seem to know a lot about christianity and I know nothing about your faith.

Do you believe in life after death? I think you explained that you do. Okay. So what happens after death?? Some religions believe you go to heaven or hell. Some religions believe life just continues in the state you lived it on earth. Some believe in reincarnation and that you come back with the same soul.

Which is it? If you pick one, doesn’t that mean you agree with THAT particular religion?

I believe God will judge us by the light we have been given. But you know so many religions, how will you be judged? Just by the general light that is in each religion alone?

And, if you are “saved”, can you lose that salvation? How?

I absolutely refuse to google Krishna or anything else I discuss on these threads. In fact, I think it’s rather silly (not to use stronger words) to think you could learn about any religion on google!

Regards to you and Servant
Fran

Sorry Fran did miss this and you asked so many questions I would never want it to be seen as a competition between Gods, but as it is. That is a discussion as to why we have chosen our path to God.

I would love to answer all, but to do so on this Forum may be seen in the wrong light so I will just offer some thoughts.

As a Baha’i we see a Trinity in all Religion, that is God, The Holy Spirit and the Messenger. What we believe is that when Christ says I am the Way the Truth and the Light no One comes to the Father but by me, Christ is talking as the Holy Spirit of God.

When Christ says Why callest me Good, there is None good but God, Christ is talking in His Human Condition.

Thus we see it as God is Unknowable and to be known He gives the Holy Spirit to His Chosen Messenger in Each Age. The same Holy Spirit was in all of them in the age they gave their message from God. Each had a specific message to Give to guide Humanity to the Knowledge of Gods Oneness. God the Sun, Holy Spirit the Rays, Christ the Perfect Mirror to reflect the Holy Spirit of God. Thus we will always see Christ as God when we look at the reflection and Christ as the Human when we look at the mirror.

If you put a new name on the mirror, it is but still the same Holy Spirit which is in Christ.

Thus could go into may topics there but that gives the basic concept of what we believe.

IMHO I see it as a necessary progression of religion required for the Progression of our Free Will to know and to Love God. God has always made it a challenge for us to let go of the Old and receive the new as we should.

Now as to how a message may differ, it is mainly only because of the meaning that man attributes to what has been revealed from God. There is different Laws and Observances for each age, but the fundamentals do stay the same.

Personally I see the message of the Bible reflected in the most ancient beliefs we find on this planet, the Australian Aboriginals and the American Indians connection to the Earth and Creative Spirit. This could go forever

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[frangiuliano115]

Sorry Fran did miss this and you asked so many questions I would never want it to be seen as a competition between Gods, but as it is. That is a discussion as to why we have chosen our path to God.

I would love to answer all, but to do so on this Forum may be seen in the wrong light so I will just offer some thoughts.

As a Baha’i we see a Trinity in all Religion, that is God, The Holy Spirit and the Messenger. What we believe is that when Christ says I am the Way the Truth and the Light no One comes to the Father but by me, Christ is talking as the Holy Spirit of God.

When Christ says Why callest me Good, there is None good but God, Christ is talking in His Human Condition.

Thus we see it as God is Unknowable and to be known He gives the Holy Spirit to His Chosen Messenger in Each Age. The same Holy Spirit was in all of them in the age they gave their message from God. Each had a specific message to Give to guide Humanity to the Knowledge of Gods Oneness. God the Sun, Holy Spirit the Rays, Christ the Perfect Mirror to reflect the Holy Spirit of God. Thus we will always see Christ as God when we look at the reflection and Christ as the Human when we look at the mirror.

If you put a new name on the mirror, it is but still the same Holy Spirit which is in Christ.

Thus could go into may topics there but that gives the basic concept of what we believe.

IMHO I see it as a necessary progression of religion required for the Progression of our Free Will to know and to Love God. God has always made it a challenge for us to let go of the Old and receive the new as we should.

Now as to how a message may differ, it is mainly only because of the meaning that man attributes to what has been revealed from God. There is different Laws and Observances for each age, but the fundamentals do stay the same.

Personally I see the message of the Bible reflected in the most ancient beliefs we find on this planet, the Australian Aboriginals and the American Indians connection to the Earth and Creative Spirit. This could go forever

God Bless and Regards Tony

“The old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.”
2 Corinthians 5:17b

Thanks to you and to Servant19.

Would that the light of God be seen by all men!

Fran

 

[Seekerjn316]

Seekerjn316;13401527:

I know what you mean, Seeker. I’m saying that you don’t understadn MY position.

Anybody who has studied the bible as a “book”, for example, in a university religious study class, will know exactly what you’re saying in your first pp.

Another way to say this would be to understand the gospels as being written in such a way as to prove that Jesus was the awaited Messiah and to show this by “fixing” or altering His story to fit o.t. prophecy.

Christians know that the bible is not a scientific book or a biography. It was written for a specific purpose. To let us know that God created everything, that we sin, that we need a savior and that Jesus is that savior.

But, now, try to understand ME. I gave you the Ghandi allegory. I can’t do better than that. If I can’t trust the gospel writers, or Paul or James or Peter or ANYONE who may have written the letters, then my religion is a false religion, I’ve been fooled and am following the wrong person!

What I’m saying is that Jesus/Ghandi was alive and people knew Jesus and Ghandi. If anyone wrote such outrageous things about either one of them 20 to 60 years after their death, there would have been an outcry. If my allegorical book about Ghandi had been written, don’t you think there would have been an outcry? Ditto for Jesus. No wrting like that has been found.

You can NOT agree with me, but at least tell me you understand me!

One of the first things you learn in theology for christianity, is that it is a reasonable religion, based on reason, and based on the fact that you could TRUST who wrote the N.T. Otherwise, it’s all false!

If you want to believe it’s all myth, that’s okay. But please confirm to me that then it would mean my religion is wrong –

BTW, what does your religious affiliation mean?

Fran
P.S. Scholars and theologians accept that John the Apostle wrote the gospel of John. There’s some doubt, but I believe Mathew, or Levi, wrote the gospel of Mathew, as do many.

Fran, I understand what you are saying. I think I understand the points you were trying to make.

The two posts I generated were to “answer a challenge” of sorts… I provided another answer in relation to Jesus claims in John, he did not need to be God on one hand or a charlatan , insane person or liar on the other…your post appeared to me was offering us JUST those rwo choices as if that “settled the matter” , I offered another explanation in dealing with Johns gospel…oh most biblical scholars do not believe John, Son of Zebedee wrote this gospel.

The general consensus does not indicate modern scholarship believe any of the gospels were written by the men who’s name is attached to it. Concensus indicates no Original 12 apostles wrote any of the gospels. Paul is the only New Testament writer we know with certainty wrote most of the epistles we have. The New Testament was not authored by anyone who knew Jesus.

I have no wish to tell you your faith is wrong…that would serve no purpose…plus it’s unchritable and rude. We ALL are on the same Journey, we all have the same goal…to make this a better world to live in and on the Last Day echo with Paul that he finished the race, fought the fight and press on to the high calling of God.

With both a the Friends and the Army, we Journey Together, we all share the burdens, we are not enemies, but Family.

I was raised in the Church of the Nazarene…my mom went out of guilt, my dad went on Christmas and Easter. When we moved, my mom enrolled my brother and I into Summer Vacation Bible School with the Christian and Missionary Alliance.

When I graduated high school and moved away, I began attending Salvation Army…during my late 20 ’ s to late 30’ I began to really search for something “real”…that has been my lifetime Search for Truth…which for the last 15 years has brought me into the Friends Church then sort of laterally I transitioned into a Friends Meeting which worshipped in the traditional Quaker way. Not so many years ago a new meeting was formed in my town, Freedom Friends Church. It’s unique in that it has a pastor who may or may not preach on First Day…and blends programmed and unprotected worship styles…I attend the meeting time that meet on the basis of Silence in Expectant Waiting,and to enter into His Presence and seek His will.

Both the Salvation Army and Quakers have engaged this world to offer shelter for the homeless, food for the hungry, care for the dying among other things…we have a unique understanding of the second coming…if He is to return, we must make straight the roads and build this world into an acceptable place for Him to return, so we must deal with the sick and dying, feel the hungry, clothe the naked , visit those in prison. We seek to teach the nations to pound their swords into pruning hooks, teach peace among Gods People…Each of us doing our part.

 

[TonyBS]

frangiuliano115;13401784:

Both the Salvation Army and Quakers have engaged this world to offer shelter for the homeless, food for the hungry, care for the dying among other things…we have a unique understanding of the second coming…if He is to return, we must make straight the roads and build this world into an acceptable place for Him to return, so we must deal with the sick and dying, feel the hungry, clothe the naked , visit those in prison. We seek to teach the nations to pound their swords into pruning hooks, teach peace among Gods People…Each of us doing our part.

Words were a way to spread Faith in the Past, this day Words are only useful if Deeds Adorne the Words.

The Path Chosen is Gods Way, the Poor, sick and Destitute always Beloved of God.

God bless your works Regards Tony

 

[frangiuliano115]

frangiuliano115;13401784:

Fran, I understand what you are saying. I think I understand the points you were trying to make.

The two posts I generated were to “answer a challenge” of sorts… I provided another answer in relation to Jesus claims in John, he did not need to be God on one hand or a charlatan , insane person or liar on the other…your post appeared to me was offering us JUST those rwo choices as if that “settled the matter” , I offered another explanation in dealing with Johns gospel…oh most biblical scholars do not believe John, Son of Zebedee wrote this gospel.

The general consensus does not indicate modern scholarship believe any of the gospels were written by the men who’s name is attached to it. Concensus indicates no Original 12 apostles wrote any of the gospels. Paul is the only New Testament writer we know with certainty wrote most of the epistles we have. The New Testament was not authored by anyone who knew Jesus.

I have no wish to tell you your faith is wrong…that would serve no purpose…plus it’s unchritable and rude. We ALL are on the same Journey, we all have the same goal…to make this a better world to live in and on the Last Day echo with Paul that he finished the race, fought the fight and press on to the high calling of God.

With both a the Friends and the Army, we Journey Together, we all share the burdens, we are not enemies, but Family.

I was raised in the Church of the Nazarene…my mom went out of guilt, my dad went on Christmas and Easter. When we moved, my mom enrolled my brother and I into Summer Vacation Bible School with the Christian and Missionary Alliance.

When I graduated high school and moved away, I began attending Salvation Army…during my late 20 ’ s to late 30’ I began to really search for something “real”…that has been my lifetime Search for Truth…which for the last 15 years has brought me into the Friends Church then sort of laterally I transitioned into a Friends Meeting which worshipped in the traditional Quaker way. Not so many years ago a new meeting was formed in my town, Freedom Friends Church. It’s unique in that it has a pastor who may or may not preach on First Day…and blends programmed and unprotected worship styles…I attend the meeting time that meet on the basis of Silence in Expectant Waiting,and to enter into His Presence and seek His will.

Both the Salvation Army and Quakers have engaged this world to offer shelter for the homeless, food for the hungry, care for the dying among other things…we have a unique understanding of the second coming…if He is to return, we must make straight the roads and build this world into an acceptable place for Him to return, so we must deal with the sick and dying, feel the hungry, clothe the naked , visit those in prison. We seek to teach the nations to pound their swords into pruning hooks, teach peace among Gods People…Each of us doing our part.

Hi Seeker,

Okay. Now I understand you better. From your posts you sounded like an atheist or agnostic to me.

I like Nazarenes. They’re nice people. A simple (not meaning dumb) understanding of the bible. They don’t complicate everything. I’m kind of surprised you didn’t continue there but moved to a different protestant church. Life brings us to many destinations…

I’m wondering what your pastor does when he doesn’t preach on First Day. Would that be Sunday? I don’t think you’re a sabbath person. Silence in Expectant Waiting sounds like the catholic adoration. It’s very nice and very peaceful. A consecrated host is placed in a monstrance (a beautiful round object that holds the host) and is placed in view on the altar. People kneel and pray, sing, they wait in between each prayer, there is silence, we meditate on Jesus. It sounds a lot like what you do.

Catholics (as all christians) also believe in feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, and trying to make the world a better place, but maybe not in the sense of making it a better place for Jesus’ return. We’re kind of hoping He’ll make it a better place!

Now, I know that the Nazarene Church believes that Paul even wrote Hebrews, which is pretty much discarded today. So I guess you got your idea from other places, re the authorship of the books. I hope you at least believe what the gospels and letters say and that you aren’t doubting that! I think you do.

I’m glad you posted and cleared all that up. You can believe whatever you want to re the authorship or that none of the writers knew Jesus - as long as you believe the salvation story.

I’m not going to argue with you about John. It’s not my thing to do. I do believe that John wrote the gospel and the letters of John 1, 2 and 3, and Revelation. The style of the writings is the same, he writes of things he actually remembers, like the smell of perfume in Matha and Mary’s house in Bethany in John 12:3. So many other references that are repeated: Here are a few from a study bible I have:
2 John 5 1 John 2:7 John 13:34-35
2 John 6 1 5:3 John 14:23
2 7 1 4:2-3
2 12 1 1:4 15:11, 16:24

You don’t think Mathew wrote that gospel? I think that he did. And you have to agree that Luke travelled with Paul, so if you believe Paul wrote the Pauline letters then why couldn’t Luke have written Luke’s gospel? And Mark was a helper to Peter: this is all tied in together in the book at Acts. I’m not a biblical scholar and don’t have this information in my head and would require some work to get into detail, I kind of wish you’d look into it again, but, as I said, I don’t think it’s all that important.

What IS important is that you DON’T think Jesus was a crazy man who thought He was God!

Fran