Unstructured Thread...

[2ndGen]

In St John 21, Jesus Christ asks St Peter three times “Lovest thou me…” This atones for St Peter’s triple denial. I believe that St John 21 is a poor apologetic for the supreme papal infallibilty that now exists in the Roman Catholic Church.

Yes, but it seems that you gain a convenient amnesia when you forgot this that was also in John 21:

15 So when they had broken their fast, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again a second time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Tend my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Feed His lambs, was to nurture The Apostles who (again) would go on to be slaughtered as lambs like Jesus was in martyrdom to His Gospel (except for John who was chosen to care for Mary and spared because he stood with Christ until the end).

Tend His sheep, was to guide the disciples. The disciples follow the Good Shephard who was Christ. Here, Peter was told to be the one to shephard Jesus’ flock once Jesus was gone.

Feed His sheep, was to nurture them, to give them substanance so that they (the sheep, or Christians) could grow.

 

[Mickey]

Yes, but it seems that you gain a convenient amnesia when you forgot this that was also in John 21:

The sheep (the ones on the right) are all Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ unto the salvation of their souls. All the Apostles were commissioned to feed and tend to the sheep.

 

[2ndGen]

The sheep (the ones on the right) are all Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ unto the salvation of their souls. All the Apostles were commissioned to feed and tend to the sheep.

Is this based on a Scriptural teaching or is this your own assesment?

I only see Jesus telling “one” Apostle (the same one that He gave the Keys to The Kingdom of Heaven to), Peter, that He is to tend and feed His sheep and in fact, he is also told to feed The Apostles (the lambs).

Of course, if I’m wrong that when Jesus addressed Peter directly He “meant” all the Apostles, you can prove this to me, right?

(That’s like the Protestant who said that when Jesus said “upon this rock I will build My Church”, He was pointing to Himself! LOL).

 

[Mickey]

Is this based on a Scriptural teaching or is this your own assesment?

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep**.(Jn 10:11)**

I only see Jesus telling “one” Apostle

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mat 18:18)

All Apostles!

he is also told to feed The Apostles (the lambs).

Where do you get this interpretation that lambs = apostles?

After his resurrection, Jesus asked Peter three times, “Do you love me?” After Peter’s first response that he did, indeed, love the Lord, Jesus told him, “Feed my lambs.” This mandate continues to guide the Church. In order to be faithful to its mission, the Church must take heed of the suffering of innocent children; we must put our faith into action. Today, we still need to carry out Jesus’ command, “Feed my lambs.”
Joseph Cardinal Bernardin
1928 - 1996

The Roman Catholic Cardinal does not seem to think it means the apostles.

(That’s like the Protestant who said that when Jesus said “upon this rock I will build My Church”, He was pointing to Himself! LOL).

No. The rock is St Peter’s confession. We also become like St Peter when we confess Jesus to be “the Christ, the Son of the Living God”.

Jesus Christ is the cornerstone!

 

[2ndGen]

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep**.(Jn 10:11)**

 

[Mickey]

entire quote was…“I only see Jesus telling “one” Apostle (the same one that He gave the Keys to The Kingdom of Heaven to), Peter, that He is to tend and feed His sheep and in fact, he is also told to feed The Apostles (the lambs).”

St Peter was the only one that denied Christ three times.

Now, do you have a scripture (yes or no) that states that Jesus told all The Apostles to tend and feed His Sheep?

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mat 18:18)

They were only called to evangelize, not to lead.

They established Churches and became bishops. If that is not leading, then I do not know what is.

Easy, Jesus was The Lamb of God who would lay down His life for His Sheep. The Apostles are Jesus’ lambs

We are all God’s children (lambs) (sheep).

What happened to the remaining 9 Apostles? They were all martyred as was Jesus for preaching The Gospel. They were slain like The Lamb of God was slain.

There are countless martyrs for the faith. Do you read your history?

So you’re saying that Jesus gave The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to a group of words and call Simon’s words “Rock”?

Most ECF’s interpret the rock to be St Peter’s confession. A few say that the rock is Christ. And a few say that the rock is St Peter.

If it was only Simon’s words that were to be called “Rock” by Christ, why did Jesus keep calling Him Peter after that?"?

Because St Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Again, only Peter was chosen to feed Jesus’ lambs and to feed and to tend His flock of sheep.

All the apostles were chosen to tend to the flock. Jesus addressed St Peter three times because he had denied him three times. Jesus Christ was affirming his repentance.

You never posted a scripture proving otherwise.

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Mat 18:18)

The other Apostles were to evangelize and convert only.
Peter was given The Good Shephard’s job.
To feed and to tend.

All the apostles were blessed to evangelize, convert, and shepherd the flock.

 

[2ndGen]

=Mickey;3260179]

St Peter was the only one that denied Christ three times.

A lot less than the 7 X 70 times Jesus requires us to forgive.

They established Churches and became bishops. If that is not leading, then I do not know what is.

There can only be “one” leader. How many Jesuses were there? And all the Churches answered to Peter. Even Paul had to meet with Peter before he could go about his own ministry waiting 3 years “after” having been confronted by Christ, but not beginning “until” he conferred with Peter first.

I think you don’t know what “leader” means…allow me to define it for you:

lead·er
–noun

1. a person or thing that leads.
2. a guiding or directing head, as of an army, movement, or political group.
3. Music. a. a conductor or director, as of an orchestra, band, or chorus.
   b. the player at the head of the first violins in an orchestra, the principal cornetist in a band, or the principal soprano in a chorus, to whom any incidental solos are usually assigned.
4. a featured article of trade, esp. one offered at a low price to attract customers. Compare loss leader.
5. Journalism. a. leading article (def. 1).
   b. Also called leading article. British. the principal editorial in a newspaper.
6. blank film or tape at the beginning of a length of film or magnetic tape, used for threading a motion-picture camera, tape recorder, etc. Compare trailer (def. 6).
7. Angling. a. a length of nylon, silkworm gut, wire, or the like, to which the lure or hook is attached.
   b. the net used to direct fish into a weir, pound, etc.
8. a pipe for conveying rain water downward, as from a roof; downspout.
9. a horse harnessed at the front of a team.
10. leaders, Printing. a row of dots or a short line to lead the eye across a space.
11. Nautical. lead1 (def. 40b).
12. a duct for conveying warm air from a hot-air furnace to a register or stack.
13. Mining. a thin vein of ore connected with a large vein.

Yep, the applicable meaning to our conversation means 1.

We are all God’s children (lambs) (sheep).
There are countless martyrs for the faith. Do you read your history?

Now, how could Peter possibly take care of alllllll of Jesus’ lambs (martyrs) when he’d die within a hundred years? Common sense…He was referring to the lambs that He had right there and right then. The 10 remaining Apostles.

Most ECF’s interpret the rock to be St Peter’s confession. A few say that the rock is Christ. And a few say that the rock is St Peter.

Funny. Peter means rock. Literally.
Are they going to suggest that Jesus was talking to a snail next or to a bird’s leg?

People just need to accept what’s written. Not what’s “not” written.

Because St Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Demons confessed that Jesus was the Messiah too. Are they “rocks”?

All the apostles were chosen to tend to the flock. Jesus addressed St Peter three times because he had denied him three times. Jesus Christ was affirming his repentance.

But only one Apostle was chosen to feed them.

All the apostles were blessed to evangelize, convert, and shepherd the flock.

Scripture for all the Apostles leading the flock and which ones? There’d be 11 flocks, 12 if you included Matthias.

Now, where in The Bible does it state that Jesus picked any other Apostle besides Peter to tend His Sheep?

 

[Mickey]

A lot less than the 7 X 70 times Jesus requires us to forgive.?

Do you not see the symbolism here? Three denials corresponding to Jesus asking three times if St Peter loved Him?

There can only be “one” leader.

You do not need to post lengthy definitions. Such dramatic displays are comdescending. I am not arguing that St Peter was not a leader. Of course he was! He was a leader amongst the Apostles. He held a primacy of honor. It is the same position that the Pope of Rome held through most of the first millenium of the Church.

Now, how could Peter possibly take care of all of Jesus’ lambs (martyrs) when he’d die within a hundred years? Common sense…He was referring to the lambs that He had right there and right then. The 10 remaining Apostles.

St Peter and all the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit to guide and grow the Church. There were many lambs. Where do you get your stange interpretations? In fact, if you believe that the Pope of Rome continues to be the successor of St Peter, is he not still caring for the lambs?

Peter means rock. Literally.

In Matthew 16:18, the word “rock” refers to Peter’s confession of faith, and not to Peter himself, despite the fact that Peter/rock is a play on the word for rock in Aramaic [petros] and Greek [petra]. As we read in 1Corinthians 10:4, “…they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ,” Who alone is the very foundation, or true Rock, upon which stands the Church. It is on Jesus Christ, the Rock, that the Church’s unchanging faith and confession is firmly rooted.

People just need to accept what’s written. Not what’s “not” written.

Are you protestant? Have you ever heard of Sacred Tradition?

Demons confessed that Jesus was the Messiah too. Are they “rocks”?

Are you saying that only St Peter can make this confession of Faith? Are saying that everyone else is a demon?

But only one Apostle was chosen to feed them.

All the Apostles!

Scripture for all the Apostles leading the flock and which ones? There’d be 11 flocks, 12 if you included Matthias.

As I believe you are aware—the Apostles established many Churches and five Patriarchates.

Now, where in The Bible does it state that Jesus picked any other Apostle besides Peter to tend His Sheep?

Again, I am not denigrating St Peter. You are being defensive. The Holy Orthodox Church has beautiful veneration for him. In fact there is a two week fast before the Feastday of SS Peter and Paul. Does it make sense to you that since St Peter was a leader amongst the Apostles, that Jesus’ statement to St Peter applies to all the Apostles? You have very strange and selective interpretations.

I will summarize my point and then leave this thread because I have had this debate too many times. I do not dispute St Peter being a leader amongst the Apostles. I do not dispute St Peter having a primacy of honour. What I do dispute is that St Peter was a supreme infallible pontiff who claims that all must submit to him. The idea of a supreme infallible pontiff did not exist for about 1000 years when the Church was one. In fact, the doctrine of infalliblility did not exist until about 1870 years after the birth of Jesus Christ and it was defined by—er–the Pope of Rome!

I shall exit this thread now.
Blessings

 

[2ndGen]

Do you not see the symbolism here? Three denials corresponding to Jesus asking three times if St Peter loved Him?

 

[East_Anglican]

Now, your “expanding” on terms.

If your defense is that a term that doesn’t exist in the Bible cannot be believed, then you’ll have to throw out the following words and terms of your Christian vocabulary because they were never mentioned in The Holy Bible:

Bible

It’s usually on the cover though.

Holy Bible

That’s on the cover usually too.

Trinity

Yes but all three persons are mentioned aren’t they?

Rapture

Yes but that is because the rapture isn’t going to happen.

I could say “where does the term Orthodox Church” doesn’t exist in the Bible so therefore is “unbiblical” or not worthy to be believed in.

The word ‘unbiblical’ isn’t in there either.

Now, we know that Peter was chosen to lead The Church by Jesus and we know that He was in Rome. Therefore, wherever Peter was, there was the center of The Church.

This belief is first documented in 110 Ad.

110 AD?

Christ was crucified circa 30 AD, this means that either peter was about 110 years old when he died or had been dead for at least 20years. Why don’t the Eastern Orthodox believe this?

The word ‘England’ does not appear in The Bible, but make no mistake England exists. I know , because I’m in it.

The word 'Purgatory is not in The Bible but that’s because Purgatory does not exist. When Jesus said “It is finished” it meant we didn’t need to burn anymore at all.

 

[East_Anglican]

The Rock is that which was and is revealed from Heaven.

 

[Mickey]

The Orthodox didn’t exist until 600 years after that.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

Of course you will…without answering my questions.

Your questions were answered. But you choose not to hear.

Peace

 

[Mickey]

The word 'Purgatory is not in The Bible but that’s because Purgatory does not exist.

 

[wisdomseeker]

St Peter was a bishop, not a pope.

do you even know what the word pope means? if you cannot believe what you see, how can you believe what you do not see? if you cannot obey the authority here on earth how can you can you obey the authority in Heaven which you cannot see?
pride will hinder man from seing the truth.

 

[2ndGen]

It’s usually on the cover though.
That’s on the cover usually too.

 

[2ndGen]

The Rock is that which was and is revealed from Heaven.

What is your scriptural proof of this post 16th Century belief?

 

[Mickey]

do you even know what the word pope means?

Papa.

if you cannot believe what you see, how can you believe what you do not see? if you cannot obey the authority here on earth how can you can you obey the authority in Heaven which you cannot see?

I believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. And I believe in the Apostolic succession of bishops. But I do not believe that “one” bishop (Rome) is the supreme infallible pontiff by which all others must submit.

 

[2ndGen]

do you even know what the word pope means? if you cannot believe what you see, how can you believe what you do not see? if you cannot obey the authority here on earth how can you can you obey the authority in Heaven which you cannot see?
pride will hinder man from seing the truth.

“St Peter was a bishop, not a pope.”

He’s obviously “not” aware that The Pope “is” The Bishop of Rome.

Therefore, Peter being a Bishop “in” Rome,
makes HIm The Bishop of Rome
(the city in which the institution of The Christian Church
was established according to History).

 

[2ndGen]

Papa.
I believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. And I believe in the Apostolic succession of bishops. But I do not believe that “one” bishop (Rome) is the supreme infallible pontiff by which all others must submit.

Come on Mickey…now, translate “papa” into English…who am I kidding, you’ll avoid that question like the plague as well

Papa means “father” (a word used commonly by The Apostles in their relation to the disciples).

Who’s your “pope” on earth?

Do the Orthodox have one supreme leader?

And why don’t you accept Matthew 16 when Jesus said that Hell would never infiltrate His Church?

 

[Mickey]

you’ll avoid that question like the plague as well

Why must you be a drama queen?

Papa means “father”

Yeah. So?

Who’s your “pope” on earth?

Jesus Christ is the Head of the Holy Orthodox Church.

Do the Orthodox have one supreme leader?

Jesus Christ.

And why don’t you accept Matthew 16 when Jesus said that Hell would never infiltrate His Church?

I accept Matthew 16–but not your interpretation of it.