Until heaven and earth pass away?

[pwlj_christ87]

until heaven and earth pass away, christ himself said… does this mean that heaven and earth will pass away, is this compatible with eternity?

 

[katholikos12]

Revelations is confusing.

so take what i say with 500 pounds of salt, but it does seem to indicate that God will create a New Heaven (possibly a new Earth?).

The language in Revelations is highly symbolic; however, there is certainly elements that are exactly what they say they are.

 

[pwlj_christ87]

this passage was not from revelations unless you are talking about the new heaven and earth if thatis from revelations?

 

[katholikos12]

this passage was not from revelations unless you are talking about the new heaven and earth if thatis from revelations?

Thats kinda what i thought you were referring to so yea…

I am unaware of a heaven and earth passing away except at the end of time… in revelations

I feel like were not on the same page …

 

[pwlj_christ87]

we are sort of, the passage that i am referring to comes from mathew though, 5:17-19

 

[TimothyH]

Revelations is confusing.

so take what i say with 500 pounds of salt, but it does seem to indicate that God will create a New Heaven (possibly a new Earth?).

The language in Revelations is highly symbolic; however, there is certainly elements that are exactly what they say they are.

Hold the salt please. There really is no need for it. Revelation is not that confusing if the Old Testament is understood.

Much of the imagery in Revelation is drawn from the Old Testament, especially the books of the prophets Daniel, Jerimiah and Ezekiel. Once one has a basic understanding of the Old Tesament, things in Revelation become much clearer.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:22)

The heavens and earth will be transformed at the end of time. God will recreate everything. Much of this imagery is taken from Ezekiel.

***The one who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” *(revelation 21:5)

I would say that all of this will happen, and has in fact already started to happen.

I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them [as their God]. (Revelation 21:3)*

God has come to dwell with man in the form of Jesus Christ. The fullness of this revelation will happen at the end of time, but God has already begun making all things new as he himself has come to walk among us in the person of Jesus Christ who promised that he would never leave us.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

we are sort of, the passage that i am referring to comes from mathew though, 5:17-19

The context of Jesus’s words are important. Catholics don’t read individual verses apart from their context nor do they read verses apart from the entirety of scripture. If you read the surrounding verses, you can see that he is talking about the laws and commandments of the Old Testmanet - the Levitical law or the law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)

Jesus is saying that the law of Moses will stand forever, until the end of time, “Until all things have taken place”.

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14)

In Jesus’ command to love one another is contained all the laws of the Old Testament and all the teachings of the prophets, so these will stand until the end of time - until all things are made new, until all things have taken place.

-Tim-

 

[ahs]

until heaven and earth pass away, christ himself said… does this mean that heaven and earth will pass away, is this compatible with eternity?

Are you referring to Matt 24:35 “…heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will not pass away…”? This is compatible with eternity. To understand it, we should understand eternity. What is God? He is spirit. We however are material…with a soul which is a spirit. Heaven and earth as we know it is material and space…space in which our material (bodies, things, etc…) spread out in, so to speak. God, however, does not need space to spread out in, because He is spirit…not restricted by material or space. Christ is saying that the material things as we know them are temporary…not eternal. But His Word is eternal because of the nature of God and what His Word is.

I’m probably not doing a great job explaining this…I’m just learning it myself from Frank Sheed’s “Theology for Beginners”. It is a GREAT book that really clears up so many teachings of Christianity.

 

[katholikos12]

Jesus is saying that the law of Moses will stand forever, until the end of time, “Until all things have taken place”.

-Tim-

To clarify, you mean that the 10 commandments will not pass away along with natural law?

 

[SonCatcher]

until heaven and earth pass away, christ himself said… does this mean that heaven and earth will pass away, is this compatible with eternity?

It is an idiom similar to the traditional translation of the Glory Be concludes with “world without end.” Of course the world will end but the idiom means “forever”. The “passing away” of heaven and earth here is a similar idiom that the first century Jews would have recognized.

One way to consider it is to ask, “which heaven?” The cosmos (natural heaven) will come to an end similar to how the natural earth will (albeit at a different time).

 

[SonCatcher]

To clarify, you mean that the 10 commandments will not pass away along with natural law?

Our Lord was speaking of the Mosaic Law. As Christians, we are actually held to a higher standard (the Beatitudes and the Great Commandment).

Natural Law is an interesting concept for Eternity. “We will be like Him” (1 John 3:2) so any “natural law” will be in relation to our resurrected form (not our present corruptible flesh). Of course, we will have no desire that violates this so the need to study our resurrected natures for right and wrong would be unnecessary (and possibly futile).

 

[COPLAND_3]

Here is the footnote to the Aquinas Study Bible

21:1 new heavens and earth: He does not mean that the heaven and the earth and the sea will be destroyed and have disappeared and that others will be created in their place, but that the present ones will have thrown off their decay and become new, as though they have taken off an old garment and the accompanying dirt. (Oecumenius) heaven and earth fled away: This is that which the Lord said, 'Heaven and earth shall pass away; but my words shall not pass away, ’ Matt. 24:35." (Haimo of Auxerre) sea is now no more: I would not lightly say whether it is dried up with that excessive heat, or is itself also turned into some better thing. (St. Augustine City of God 20.16) For what use is there of a sea when people no longer need to sail it or to aquire by means of it the goods grown in regions lying far away? Moreover the ‘sea’ is symbolic of the turbulence and unsettledness of life, and so there will then be no need of it when there remains no trouble or fear among the saints. (St. Andrew of Caesarea) Luis of Alcasar maintains that the sea here mentioned is mystical, and so says St. Albert the Great. Primasius is uncertain upon the subject; so are Rabanus Maurus and St. Ambrosius Autpertus; while Berengaud admits both an allegorical and literal interpretation.

 

[kkollwitz]

At the Second Coming our bodies and souls are reunited, and everyone is judged according to their works. (rev 20) The saved then dwell with Jesus forever in the New Jerusalem. (rev 21)