Unwanted Divorce

[CatholicSooner]

But the Church hasn’t. And wont.

Don’t be so sure about yourself. It’s not like the church of today is the exact same as the church of 2000 years ago.

The Church cannot take a sin, an evil offense against God, or a sacrilege and permit it for anything.

Technically they could. Jesus gave them authority. And as I pointed out earlier, Moses was allowed to let people get divorced b/c of the circumstances. So I don’t buy that the Church can’t.

Saints have died to protect Jesus in the Eucharist. Saints have died never having been able to live their vocations of marriage. And mankind has a penchant for choosing a libido over God. And in this day and age what is being sold as an act of “Mercy” by the Church may very well be the case of the medicine being worse than the disease. Marriage and the family have suffered. We can not even define marriage as between one man and one woman. Multiple spouses (divorced and remarriage) , and homosexual “marriage” are up for debate socially. We cannot even define a marriage or a family anymore. At this point, further weakening our understanding of marriage would be the worst thing the Church could do, it would be an act of Harm, not mercy.

I don’t think any Catholic is saying let any divorcee be able to remarry anytime they want. I don’t know what the answer is but I get conflicted on the thought of God being a very merciful God yet dissallowing devout, richeous people his presence because of remarrying. I understand the teaching. I follow the teaching. But if the church decides it is best to change, then I will follow that as well.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Don’t be so sure about yourself. It’s not like the church of today is the exact same as the church of 2000 years ago.

Technically they could. Jesus gave them authority. And as I pointed out earlier, Moses was allowed to let people get divorced b/c of the circumstances. So I don’t buy that the Church can’t.

I don’t think any Catholic is saying let any divorcee be able to remarry anytime they want. I don’t know what the answer is but I get conflicted on the thought of God being a very merciful God yet dissallowing devout, richeous people his presence because of remarrying. I understand the teaching. I follow the teaching. But if the church decides it is best to change, then I will follow that as well.

Don’t be so sure about yourself. It’s not like the church of today is the exact same as the church of 2000 years ago.

The ones who are too sure of themselves are the ones who think their idea of mercy is superior to the entire history of the faith. It is also ignorant of all those who have come before. Arguing the change before the change is presumptuous would you not agree?

The Church can and has changed practices. Some even withe marriage itself. But She has never nor could ever change what is already revealed as Truth. Like the Eucharist being for people in a state of grace. Or the indissolubility of marriage. The idea of toleration of a sin is as damaging as the sin itself. We are talking about souls here.

I guess I don’t believe you have a grasp on what marriage is. So I must ask you to define it. What is it?

 

[CatholicSooner]

The ones who are too sure of themselves are the ones who think their idea of mercy is superior to the entire history of the faith. It is also ignorant of all those who have come before. Arguing the change before the change is presumptuous would you not agree?

Nothing presumptuous about my comments. I don’t know if it is going to happen and I haven’t predicted it is going to happen. Simply discussing what may happen. People are being ignorant if they don’t think there are people inside the Vatican that want something changed.

The Church can and has changed practices. Some even withe marriage itself. But She has never nor could ever change what is already revealed as Truth. Like the Eucharist being for people in a state of grace. Or the indissolubility of marriage. The idea of toleration of a sin is as damaging as the sin itself. We are talking about souls here.

The act of mercy is not a toleration of the sin.

I guess I don’t believe you have a grasp on what marriage is. So I must ask you to define it. What is it?

My grasp on marriage is fine. Apparantely though, people don’t understand what message boards are and that discussions are allowed. Too many times people think that if somebody disagrees with them, that they are idiotic or ignorant.

 

[styrgwillidar]

…
I understand the for better for worse vows. But I also know that people are weak and God is merciful. It a perfect, holy world, after a civil divorce, the couples would have the strength and faith to live out the rest of their life chaste. But in the real world that isn’t going to happen but for a faithful few.

No, but you can only control your own actions. Each person must decide if they truly believe, if they meant their vow, if they will abide by it- that promise they made before God. I do agree that people often do not put enough thought and serious contemplation of what that vow truly means, both the good and the bad which can occur.

In a hypothetical, I would pray I would had the strength to choose God and chastity but i know there is a strong chance that my sinful ways would take hold and I would be tempted to remarry. Especially if this happens early in life. It is sad to think that people have to choose between humanly love and companionship and receiving Eucharist.

What is sad about upholding my vow? Of keeping faith with my Lord and Savior and trying my best to abide by His commandments? If I will not keep my word to Him, who can trust me? Talk is cheap, whiskey costs money. It is an opportunity to prove my faith, to show my love to my Lord. Will I keep my word to Him, as I expect He will keep His word to me and mine?

Are we to believe that God does not posses the power to void a covenant b/t man and wife?

We can believe what we like, but as a Catholic, I believe that Christ established a church and granted it authority. That it teaches from that authority, and it teaches that a sacramental marriage is a life-long commitment.

 

[CatholicSooner]

What is sad about upholding my vow?

You don’t feel sorrow or pity for the people that can’t receive the Eucharist at mass?

 

[CatholicSooner]

We can believe what we like, but as a Catholic, I believe that Christ established a church and granted it authority. That it teaches from that authority, and it teaches that a sacramental marriage is a life-long commitment.

And what if that church established by Christ decides to change things in regards to receiving the Eucharist?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You don’t feel sorrow or pity for the people that can’t receive the Eucharist at mass?

Yes. I feel bad that sin has an effect and a consequence.

If I commit adultery and sleep with your spouse and I do not intend to change it because I just want to do what makes me “happy” Do you support me eating and drinking judgement upon my soul in front of you at Mass on Sunday?

You seem to make the issue about how mean those of us who respect the Holines of Marriage, confession and the Eucharist are. And less about the responsibility of someone to live according to God’s will.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If my wife is hit by a Semi on her way home tonight, and is incapacitated, can I divorce her and marry a functional wife? No? Why would the Church not show me mercy and not let me have a functional happy “marriage” ? Why should I suffer because my wife is hurt? It is not like we are a union that became one entity or anything.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

And what if that church established by Christ decides to change things in regards to receiving the Eucharist?

Change how? Change the Dogma that one must be in a state of grace?

Let me ask you what happened when someone touched the Ark. Was Mary a sinner and in a state of sin when she Carried Christ in her?

 

[CatholicSooner]

Yes. I feel bad that sin has an effect and a consequence.

If I commit adultery and sleep with your spouse and I do not intend to change it because I just want to do what makes me “happy” Do you support me eating and drinking judgement upon my soul in front of you at Mass on Sunday?

You seem to make the issue about how mean those of us who respect the Holines of Marriage, confession and the Eucharist are. And less about the responsibility of someone to live according to God’s will.

I just going to back out of this because you like to make arguments about discussions and misinterpret my posts.

 

[CatholicSooner]

Change how? Change the Dogma that one must be in a state of grace?

YOu just said that the Church had authority given to them by Jesus. So they have the authority to say who can receive the eucharist. They can make it more strict and say that you MUST go to confession before receiving. They can make it less strict and say everybody is welcome to receive the Eucharist.

 

[styrgwillidar]

You don’t feel sorrow or pity for the people that can’t receive the Eucharist at mass?

I feel sorrow for all human beings, we all have tough choices to make in this life, we all face situations where life isn’t fair from an earthly perspective.

Innocent spouses who have been left face a choice, to uphold their vow or not. If they uphold their vow, they can receive the Eucharist. But yes, they have chosen to forego the comfort of seeking another spouse and I feel the unfairness of that. If they reject their vow to seek the companionship of another, then they choose not to receive the Eucharist. And I feel sorrow and the seeming unfairness as well. But again, they did take a vow, they do have a choice.

 

[CatholicSooner]

If my wife is hit by a Semi on her way home tonight, and is incapacitated, can I divorce her and marry a functional wife? No? Why would the Church not show me mercy and not let me have a functional happy “marriage” ? Why should I suffer because my wife is hurt? It is not like we are a union that became one entity or anything.

sigh. nevermind. you simply don’t understand. I don’t see how you are coming up with these strawmen arguments that have nothing to do with what I have said.

 

[CatholicSooner]

I feel sorrow for all human beings, we all have tough choices to make in this life, we all face situations where life isn’t fair from an earthly perspective.

Innocent spouses who have been left face a choice, to uphold their vow or not. If they uphold their vow, they can receive the Eucharist. But yes, they have chosen to forego the comfort of seeking another spouse and I feel the unfairness of that. If they reject their vow to seek the companionship of another, then they choose not to receive the Eucharist. And I feel sorrow and the seeming unfairness as well. But again, they did take a vow, they do have a choice.

I agree with this.

 

[styrgwillidar]

YOu just said that the Church had authority given to them by Jesus. So they have the authority to say who can receive the eucharist. They can make it more strict and say that you MUST go to confession before receiving. They can make it less strict and say everybody is welcome to receive the Eucharist.

They have the authority to forgive sins, but not to redefine what sins are. The Church must teach and uphold truth, one must be free of mortal sin to receive the Eucharist. St. Paul stated that those who ate the Eucharist unworthilly, were brining condemnation upon themselves. One can feel sorrow, pity for choices- we can welcome them into the churches along with all us other sinners and urge them to heed the teachings of the Church. But we can’t change truth.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

sigh. nevermind. you simply don’t understand. I don’t see how you are coming up with these strawmen arguments that have nothing to do with what I have said.

And you refuse to answer questions and define what marraige is or if an unrepentant sinner can receive the Body of Christ. I have provided logical and biblical points.

I am curious. This seems to be an emotional issue for you. Why?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

sigh. nevermind. you simply don’t understand. I don’t see how you are coming up with these strawmen arguments that have nothing to do with what I have said.

Can I divorce and abandon my wife if she becomes incapacitated? Must I endure a life without marital expression to receive communion? It is not a strawman, it goes to the very heart of what marriage is. And why God created it. This is your thread. But the conversation has to be fair. Can you address what you think marriage is?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

And you refuse to answer questions and define what marraige is or if an unrepentant sinner can receive the Body of Christ. I have provided logical and biblical points.

I am curious. This seems to be an emotional issue for you. Why?

I don’t sense emotion in her posts. I sense a lot of musings and possibility for discussion. You really seem to be inserting antagonism where there doesn’t need to be any.

In response to your question, there is a fundamental difference between a spouse who suffers an injury or illness, and one who has decided to violate the marriage vows and forsake their faithful partner in exchange for someone else. Even from a secular standpoint this is a no-brainer.

Would I stand by my husband through any accident or illness? Absolutely! For the rest of my life I would care for him.

Will I suffer physical abuse, or stand by someone who has cast me aside in favor of an affair? No. Marriage vows are not a suicide pact, and no one should feel as though they are obligated to take whatever cruelty comes their way from a spouse who clearly has no regard for their well-being.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t sense emotion in her posts. I sense a lot of musings and possibility for discussion. You really seem to be inserting antagonism where there doesn’t need to be any.

In response to your question, there is a fundamental difference between a spouse who suffers an injury or illness, and one who has decided to violate the marriage vows and forsake their faithful partner in exchange for someone else. Even from a secular standpoint this is a no-brainer.

Would I stand by my husband through any accident or illness? Absolutely! For the rest of my life I would care for him.

Will I suffer physical abuse, or stand by someone who has cast me aside in favor of an affair? No. Marriage vows are not a suicide pact, and no one should feel as though they are obligated to take whatever cruelty comes their way from a spouse who clearly has no regard for their well-being.

So why do you feel that self sacrifice is paramount in a marriage? Why would you stay with a spouse through a situation where he was incapacitated. What if that was a permanent or mental situation?

I am curious BEL is your definition of marriage similar to the Church? I sense that it is. But I guess I still wonder to what authority does your marriage submit to? Is it as simple as a word and a bond. A promise made to another? From a Catholic perspective do you see why remarriage is a form of adultery?

 

[Vico]

Please accept my apologies if this has been discussed recently.

Is there any gray area in regards to divorce if only one party wants the divorce in regards to full communion with the church?

Say a couple was married in a Catholic church and had an awesome marriage and it was a real marriage in the church’s/God’s eyes (ie impossible for annullment). What if the husband cheats, beats,etc on the wife and gets a divorce.

Is the woman just out of luck in this situation to ever remarry? Doesn’t that seem harsh?

A valid consummated sacrament of marriage (between two validly baptized) is lifelong.