Unwelcome Mass?

[new_atheist]

I remember going to church with my family a couple of years ago (I was still a catholic at that time) and it was our second time to attend mass in that church. The doors were locked. I checked my watch and we were a bit late for a few minutes. I ended up driving a certain distance to find another church to attend the mass. It happened twice with that same church and we ended up going to a faraway church that remained open the whole time. i spoke to a layperson from that particular church and she told me that’s been the policy but it had since changed. That’s all I could say. No further explaination was given to us as to why they locked the church doors during mass. I have gotten over that since then.

 

[mikee]

My wife and daughter are out of town and looked for a Mass. The hotel gave them the info for a Traditional church, so that’s where they went.

They left after the Gospel. Not only did they not understand what was going on (which obviously isn’t the fault of the Church/church), but all the women were in veils (again, no blame there), but they very definitely got a cold reception, felt very conspicuous, and people seemed to make a point of not sitting near them.

I had thought a Tridentine Mass would be an interesting experience, but after hearing this, I won’t be attending one.

I’m sorry to hear about your experience.

I don’t think this is something necessarily peculiar to so-called traditional Catholics, only. People who go to Mass tend to keep to themselves (at least in my experience). There’s really no opportunity to socialize within the Mass itself. And the generality of Catholics tend to have the attitude where they clock in their hours and leave right after (sometimes even right after Holy Communion).

 

[ProVobis]

This is the reception I’ve always received at a TLM. That’s a shame because it’s the highest and best form of Catholic worship. Too bad so many in attendance are insular, paranoid, and unwelcoming.

My observations are that most who attend a TLM drive great distances to get there. Furthermore they’re not really in a position to be as welcoming as, say as people who do lively things at their local church. The TLMers themselves would probably want a friendly smile, but not in the middle of Mass. And since it’s not their church, they can’t really form friendships unless they’re committed to driving every week to that church. I wish I could form some friendships but I see different people every week at the TLM.

Then again, maybe it’s all by design.

 

[on_the_hill]

Well. I may owe my Traditionalist brethren an apology, of sorts.

My wife has arrived home, along with our daughter and my mother-in-law, who was traveling with them.

My mother-in-law grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church. She said when the Mass started, it was beautiful, just like it was when she was young. But then it got more and more “bizarre,” and she and my wife started to worry they were in the wrong place. Like they were attending a Mass that they shouldn’t have been at.

It turns out that that was the reason they left. They were actually worried that they would have been breaking the rules by participating. I’ll have to see what exactly that parish is all about.

 

[RPRPsych]

Well. I may owe my Traditionalist brethren an apology, of sorts.

My wife has arrived home, along with our daughter and my mother-in-law, who was traveling with them.

My mother-in-law grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church. She said when the Mass started, it was beautiful, just like it was when she was young. But then it got more and more “bizarre,” and she and my wife started to worry they were in the wrong place. Like they were attending a Mass that they shouldn’t have been at.

It turns out that that was the reason they left. They were actually worried that they would have been breaking the rules by participating. I’ll have to see what exactly that parish is all about.

This may have been a schismatic or even a sedevacantist group. As many posters on the thread have specified, we need more details.

 

[severus68]

I,am sorry to hear about what you feel,but most women in our church wear veil,s on their head,that is why when you went in people looked at you ,because your wife wasn,twear a veil,but don,t let you get to you,just remined your wife to have one with her incase you go into a church wear women wear veil.s.

Why should they have looked in such a manner. Veiling is a private devotion which loses its piety when you look with disapproval at those who do not.

 

[mikee]

This may have been a schismatic or even a sedevacantist group. As many posters on the thread have specified, we need more details.

This.

on_the_hill,

I would give the TLM another chance. It truly is beautiful and awe inspiring once you get to know the symbolism and meaning behind it.

Just make sure it’s celebrated by those in communion with your local bishop.

 

[LisaB]

When traveling I recommend using masstimes.org to find a local Mass. I would not trust the hotel to find a church because there are so many out there that sound catholic but really are not.

 

[Granum_Frumenti]

My mother-in-law grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church. She said when the Mass started, it was beautiful, just like it was when she was young. But then it got more and more “bizarre,” and she and my wife started to worry they were in the wrong place. Like they were attending a Mass that they shouldn’t have been at.

It turns out that that was the reason they left. They were actually worried that they would have been breaking the rules by participating. I’ll have to see what exactly that parish is all about.

Thanks for the update: I was forming some thoughts for a post while reading this thread, but the resulting response might’ve been premature. Her description is certainly intriguing, at least to me.

When traveling I recommend using masstimes.org to find a local Mass. I would not trust the hotel to find a church because there are so many out there that sound catholic but really are not.

Another method–and I’d probably try both methods–is to look for the correct website of the relevant diocese; if the website lacks a directory of parishes (including links to parish websites, though the user should be wary of expired links and the like), I’d be surprised. Both the website of the diocese where I live and that of the nearby archdiocese have listings of different categories, such as languages, like Latin.

If you’re very careful, you may try to reach someone at a church of interest directly, such as by making a call or writing an e-mail, to see if online information is up to date. You may also ask if a special schedule has been arranged for your days of interest. (I know of actual examples of parishes that will vary their schedule on legal holidays or occasionally arrange for a single parish-wide Mass on a given Sunday.)

 

[pnewton]

Well. I may owe my Traditionalist brethren an apology, of sorts.

My wife has arrived home, along with our daughter and my mother-in-law, who was traveling with them.

There is no need to apologize about just telling the story. So it was incomplete. Now the swearing another poster did was uncalled for. I understand some people are so pure and holy that nothing fazes them from their worship (although the same people will sometimes say the music, instruments or some “abuse” will make them want to walk out). We all need to be met where we are.

 

[OraLabora]

I had this once at a regular, run-of-the-mill OF Mass.

What happened was this: my mother tongue is French and since my mother was the Catholic one in our family (my dad was Anglican), I always went to Mass with her in French. Eventually I developed an interest in Gregorian chant and can get by in Church Latin as well.

But to save my life I couldn’t recite the Our Father in English (or Hail Mary for that matter) from memory.

One day I had to go to an English Mass; for some reason or another that I forget, I couldn’t attend my usual French-language Mass.

I was following along pretty well in the missalette, but the English one (Living with Christ) is laid out differently than the French one (Prions en Église) and when we reached the Our Father, I fumbled through the missalette to try to find it in English because I couldn’t say it in English from memory (still can’t). The lady “of a certain age” next to me in the pew took great umbrage with my obvious ignorance and with my being a poor excuse of a Catholic, practically RIPPED the missalette out of my hand, flipped to the page and with a stern look handed it back to me on the correct page.

I was somewhat taken aback to say the least. I should have just rattled it off loudly in Latin instead I suppose

The world is full of holier-than-thou people. My best advice: learn to let it go, pray for them while ignoring their behaviour, and keep on soldiering on… and just think of it as being at a Mass in a foreign country where one doesn’t understand the language. What would one do then? One would focus on Christ made real, present and alive miraculously and mysteriously right there and then.

 

[Granum_Frumenti]

My concern here is the sweeping judgments that are being made about people in general, most of whom are strangers. Different parishes do indeed have different cultures, just as other societies.

[snip]

I myself am quite the extrovert, and if I met you and your family after Mass, in the parish hall, in front of the church, in the parking lot, etc., I would warmly welcome you and speak with you. However, at the peace, I am one of those more prayerful people who prefer a nod to a handshake. That doesn’t make me cold or judgmental, and certainly nothing to leave Mass over.

I do want to address this point, not to change the topic but because as I kept reading this thread, I started thinking of things like differences in personality and perceptions thereof (especially because this sort of thing has been one of my personal interests). Different parishes have different cultures, and different people have different personalities.

I rarely quote whole posts, even without a forum policy that tends to discourage doing so , but here I was tempted.

And I rarely say “I could’ve written this post” (not counting things like writing a post in my own voice), but here, too, I’m tempted.

The only substantial difference that comes to my mind is that I’m an introvert by several common definitions, but my behavior in that paragraph, at least as I read it, actually wouldn’t be that dissimilar. I’ll shake your hand at the Peace, though I’d probably prefer a nod or certain other forms. Yes, I can talk to you in the parking lot–I’ve done that in parking lots where I’ve actually been! (I do not believe, and neither do you seem to believe, that “extroverts” and “introverts” are two vastly different camps, with little possibility of similarity. )

But I’m reminded of something from a long time ago.

Someone mentioned to me that someone else considered me “arrogant” when I actually wasn’t. This Someone never identified the other person, I didn’t prod her for clues to the other person’s identity, and therefore I never spoke to that Someone Else about the matter, and therefore I never found out exactly why. Years later, I was some doing reading and found out about a common misinterpretation of introversion as “arrogance.” I can’t make this match with too much certainty, but I knew at least that I wasn’t actually being arrogant.

(I wasn’t particularly hurt. I did find it ironic that labeling me without even bothering to learn more about me can be considered “arrogant” in turn. And if someone was actually gossiping about me–“wow, that Granum Frumenti sure is arrogant, don’t you agree?”–that act isn’t very “warm” or “friendly.”)

Now, I don’t presume to say that what people have described in this thread (I don’t mean the original post) is simply a misinterpretation of introversion. All the same, from reading elsewhere, I’ve heard of introverts suggesting that some other people expect everyone to be sociable on their own terms and wouldn’t understand (or even try to understand) people like me. I’d hate for people to think that people who aren’t stereotypical extroverts are somehow bad, wrong, or otherwise defective. I also suggest that sometimes maybe not everything is as it may first appear.

P.S. I’ve just spent a little time looking for discussions of introversion on this forum. There are quite a few. For some reason, I’d never looked before, though I’ve looked for and read discussions on “temperament.”

 

[balto]

Our parish tends to be more “Protestant” in our openness than others I’ve been to. We always do a “say hello to the people around you,” before Mass. I have to admit, I HATED that when we first started attending there. But I quickly learned that it’s not touchy-feely, it’s sincere friendliness.

I think this is probably what your wife experienced at the TLM parish, just in reverse. I attend a TLM every Sunday and the people generally seem to be what you would describe as “cold.” But you need to remember that the people that go to the TLM are not necessarily unfriendly but rather are just focused on Christ and the Mass so they sit in silent prayer or adoration before and after Mass. It’s like that at my TLM parish but some of the people will socialize in the vestibule, in the parish hall, or outside after Mass, so their behavior during Mass is not out of some sense of spiritual superiority. So what your wife maybe interpreted as coldness was really just reverence for the Mass? Sometimes there are people that think that they are spiritually superior because they attend the TLM but that is not the case for most people. Again, if your wife accidentally attended an SSPX or sedevacantist parish then the probably of the parishioners being actually cold is much higher.

 

[balto]

But I’m reminded of something from a long time ago.

Someone mentioned to me that someone else considered me “arrogant” when I actually wasn’t. This Someone never identified the other person, I didn’t prod her for clues to the other person’s identity, and therefore I never spoke to that Someone Else about the matter, and therefore I never found out exactly why. Years later, I was some doing reading and found out about a common misinterpretation of introversion as “arrogance.” I can’t make this match with too much certainty, but I knew at least that I wasn’t actually being arrogant.

(I wasn’t particularly hurt. I did find it ironic that labeling me without even bothering to learn more about me can be considered “arrogant” in turn. And if someone was actually gossiping about me–“wow, that Granum Frumenti sure is arrogant, don’t you agree?”–that act isn’t very “warm” or “friendly.”)

I think you are making a good point. I’ve been accused of and perceived as being “arrogant” as well just because I generally keep to myself and don’t bother other people. It’s not because I think I am better than other people but I just generally feel that people don’t want me in their face, and that gets interpreted as arrogance. My mother has the same experiences, so it isn’t just me.

A lot of people at the TLM are like this so, for some of the other posters on this thread, I would be cautious about painting all traditionalists with such a broad brush.

on_the_hill:

Well. I may owe my Traditionalist brethren an apology, of sorts.

My wife has arrived home, along with our daughter and my mother-in-law, who was traveling with them.

My mother-in-law grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church. She said when the Mass started, it was beautiful, just like it was when she was young. But then it got more and more “bizarre,” and she and my wife started to worry they were in the wrong place. Like they were attending a Mass that they shouldn’t have been at.

It turns out that that was the reason they left. They were actually worried that they would have been breaking the rules by participating. I’ll have to see what exactly that parish is all about.

Sorry, I just saw this. You don’t need to apologize, it was just a misunderstanding. It sounds like your family maybe really did attend a schismatic parish :/. Or maybe it could have been that they attended an Eastern rite Catholic church, which would still be valid but probably would have very significant differences even with a TLM. So now attending an actual TLM is open again .

 

[on_the_hill]

And speaking of coldness, family legend is that my wife’s (late) grandmother would move to another pew if someone sat in the one she occupied.

 

[HelenRose]

I don’t think people in general mean to be unfriendly and cold. A lot has to do with the cultural of the area. A small town church can seem just as unfriendly. One Church that I went to for quite awhile was 100 years old made up of large well established families-German and Hispanic. It was like being at a large family reunion not knowing anyone.

My little Mission Church tries very hard to be an open friendly church. We even have “greeters” I get so tickled sometimes because they are basically down to earth farmers and farm wives who line up like a gauntlet to greet people. They have no skill at “glad handing” and feel that being overly friendly as being a bit hypocritical.

But they are trying. If anyone wants to feel part of a Church, go to daily Mass, be in the choir, wash dishes, bring food, find work to do and in time one can gain the friendship and confidence of the parishioners.

And yes, there are those souls who would are wrapped in their own lonely world and are decidedly unfriendly.

I live in a culture of good hard working faithful people who are somewhat suspicious of people who are overly friendly.

 

[pianistclare]

I quite agree. We are told at the end of mass to “Go in peace, glorifying the Lord with your love” If a simple welcome can’t even be afforded to our brothers and sisters in Christ at the end of the mass then really people miss the point about how we are required to live out our faith.

Agreed. I have had the same experience as the OP.
Doesn’t make a case for Traditionalism, or whatever they want to call it.
This whole “you’re not worthy, you’re not holy enough”. well duh. none of us are. But with Christ, everyone is welcome at the table.
I agree too, that sometimes we make too much fuss over hugging and greeting. But warmth always trumps cold. And we definitely make too much fuss over things that are not matters of faith but preference.

When it happened to me, I stayed because I was NOT going to have anyone make me feel unwelcome at the Lord’s sacrifice. but that’s just me. They stared and huffed and puffed. All that piety wasted on shunning me.
I went to communion and received Jesus. Which is why I was there in the first place.

 

[otjm]

Let me get this straight. They left after the gospel because they believed that people did not like them? How can one actually know what is going on inside the heads of total strangers?

One does not need to know what is going on inside of the head; it is patently obvious what is going on outside the head.

People give cues. The give them with body posture, and most importantly, they give them with the face, in particular with the eyes. The term “cold stare” is not an empty saying. Anger, disdain, disapproval, judgementalism - all are obvious in facial cues.

So is curiosity, amusement, friendliness, any other number of emotional states.

There are people who seem to be clueless as to facial cues. Others are more sensitive to them. I happen to be sensitive to facial cues, and have had any number of people ask me how I could tell, for example, what was going on between two people. It baffled me how people could not see - it was out there in public for anyone who would pay attention.

Sounds like a number of assumptions were being made. And if the point was to attend a Mass while out of town (i.e., fulfill Sunday obligation), why would they walk out? Even if their clairvoyant perceptions were true, that causes someone to not attend the Holy Sacrifice? Something seems missing here.

It is likely that the level of hypocrisy was overwhelming. Someone who comes from a friendly, open and caring parish could be quite disturbed by attitudes which are so un-Christ like. If one truly wants to worship, and the atmosphere is bordering on hostile attitudes, it is likely if they have the moxey, to get up, leave, and attend Mass at another parish.

Mass is not simply “me and Jesus”; it is a community worshiping together. And worshiping together is not exactly the same as 100, 200, 500 or so people individually worshiping in isolation.

Walk into any gathering of people. Some groups will be welcoming, and seek to make you welcome and a part of the group in spite of the fact that you are a pure stranger. Others may be neutral; and still others may be actively indicating you don’t belong there.

People are judgmental (not all, but many are) and many of those who are judgmental show it. Maybe your knee didn’t touch the floor when you genuflected - or maybe you didn’t use the “correct” knee. Or you didn’t hold that posture for several beats, showing to others how pious you were. Or you didn’t have the mantilla. Or you wore Dockers instead of a suit. Or any number of other cues that those “insiders” could cue off of, to tell that you were clearly not “one of them”. There is a term for that attitude - it is called Pharisaical.

 

[Cat]

Many masses are not welcoming places. I have been going to the same parish for over twenty five years. Not once has anyone come up to speak to me or welcome me. I have always considered myself to be a fairly well dressed professional and am always well groomed by a picky wife. It would be different if I reeked of alcohol or looked “off”.However I could not give a damn as I come to worship Christ not to go to a Pentecostal group hug. We have to understand the group dynamics of sometimes closed groups and be more tolerant within a culture of reserve and personal space.
I have always seen going to mass as similar to getting the same bus to work. You often sit in the same seats; you recognize the same faces; you often give a smile on eye contact, but you have never met them nor know their names.You can often go to the after mass coffee meetings and no one can approach you.
Does it matter. Yes in so far as the evangelical happy clappers are much more friendly and get the people looking for community. But in terms of your personal spiritual life, not a bit.

How do you incorporate I Corinthians 12 (especially vs. 7) into this approach to the Church of Jesus Christ? For that matter, how do you incorporate all the New Testament descriptions of “body life” into your approach? How are you involved with the Church outside of Mass? Which spiritual gift(s) has the Holy Spirit given you, and how do you use your gift(s) to build up the Body of Christ?

 

[Cat]

Shouldn’t let that bother you. Those folks faced a lot of hostility in trying to hang on to a tradition, I experienced it myself. So they are naturally a little suspicious at the appearance of someone they don’t know and trust. Of course, your wife and daughter may have been imagining things. Hey, I’ve been in my parish over 30 years and few people speak to me, even at " donuts and coffe " aftet Mass.

The coldness of Catholics is an environmental effect of the exodus of people from the cities into suburbia after the war. The old communities are gone forever, those comfortable places where everyone knew everyone else.

Linus2nd

How can you stand this? 30 years and few people speak to you?

This isn’t what Christ intended for His Body. The members are supposed to work together. How can they work together if they don’t talk to each other?!

Or do these types of parishes communicate purely by internet?

This sounds just awful. God created us for fellowship not just with Him, but with each other. It doesn’t have to be “happy clappy”, but it should be friendly.