Up for grabs...

[Nine_Two]

Where in the bible, does the bible say that it is to be treated as a calculator?

Taking random numbers and adding the to assumptions will not get you a correct answer in any world.

You’re starting out with an answer and you’re trying to devise a way to end up with a starting point that just possibly has a chance of making sense.

Anyway 1798 was not the first time the city of Rome fell out of control of the Papacy, and it wasn’t the last. Choosing that as a date just seems odd. I guess it was the only one that could get you anywhere close to the proper establishment of the Church, eh?

 

[Reuben_J]

I will explain Genesis 7 and 8.

The rain started on the 17th day of the second month and we know this from Genesis 7:11

According to Genesis 8:3,4 the waters receded at the end of 150 days. The ark rested on the 17th day of the 7 month. That is a total of 5 months.

150 days divided by 5 months is a total of 30 days per month. 150/5=30

Please give reference where it is mentioned that 30 days make a month in Genesis.And what calender you are using or Genesis was using?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I’m just using scripture and I don’t want to offend anyone. I am not like others who ignorant in the Word and date setters.

I am simply sharing my protestant views based off of the Bible, which is what this forum is for. To compare/contrast views. I had many people say that I did not open my threads for discussion. Now that I am doing so, you attack me. Why can’t we have an intelligent conversation about the Word of God without attacks being made?

You want to have an “intelligent conversation” when your premise is that the Catholic Church is the anti-Christ like identity found in the Scriptures that you quoted? Really?

God bless

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Rueben, I explained that in post 12 if you would like to read it.

As for the discussion. If you all would like to discuss, I will do that. But to call me a liar when I have done nothing but give my understanding of the Bible is wrong. I asked for anyone to explain the verse and I think only 1 or 2 people did so.

If you disagree with my explanation, please give me yours and we can continue to have this discussion.

When people start to attack, I simply back away. If you would like to email me or send me a message about the discussion, that will be fine. But I do not do long discussions where there are attacks for many reasons.

1. posts are overlooked. Example: Rueben did not know that I explained his question/statement on the previous page.
2. people get irrational and ask irrational questions.
3. people get mad and do not read the material correctly.
4. people do not provide scriptures from the Bible to let others know where they get their explanation from.

So, I say this, if you would like to discuss, that’s fine. But to attack me, that’s not of God. And we are all here to serve God.

God Bless

 

[MarkBrown]

In this case, google is your friend. google what happened in 538 ad and then read the
websites. All fundamental, pre-mill, dispensational types. Except for one brave Catholic Soul attempting to bring sanity to this mess.

Start with faulty time lines and great big assumptions!

Add in an arbitrary date, 538AD + the assumption= Antichrist, whore of Babylon etc etc etc.

In 538 AD the Ostragoths left Rome. Due to the Pope Vigilius. Emperor Justinian decrees him head of the church. Why are the earlier gothic invasions where Rome is sacked are ignored? My other baptist mentor use to tell me it was Constantine who started the Catholic Church and the papacy. He is still a fundamental, pre-mill, dispensationalist. Which are right? Both go to select history and select bible verses to prove a point.

During the Wars of the French Revolution, Napoleon took the Vatican in 1796 and GDiv Berthier reoccupied it in Feb 1798. Imprisoned the Pope for failure to do as Napoleon demanded. Pope Pius VI died a prison of France in 1799. Pope Pius VII was choosen Pope in 1800 and began a 15 year political conflict with Napoleon. He was at the cornation of Napoleon I in 1804. Napoleon was trying to revive, among other things, an image of Charlemagne “father of French and German monarchies”. Napoleon took the crown from him and placed it on his own head and then crowned the Queen.

If the Papacy was destoryed in 1798, who was that guy Napoleon had brought from Rome to be at the ceremony of his installation as Emperor Napoleon I? Better yet, who is that guy in the white robes sitting in Peter’s chair in Rome today? Does he know he does not exist?

I use to be a fundie, pre-mill, pre-rapture, dispeny…but I got better! When I “discovered” through the reading of history books, that these types of theories are stillborn.

Fr. Mark
ACNA

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

I started this thread hoping someone would discuss the SCRIPTURE. Instead some people waited until I posted my understanding based off of that scripture and a few others and decided to attack me. Still, those people have failed to explain to me their understanding.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Based off of historical records, papal Rome began it’s reign in 538 AD under Emperor Justinian’s rule.

ummm ‘Papal Rome’ was sacked and restored a number of times before 538AD, so which of the numerous times ‘Papal Rome’ was restored did ‘Papal Rome’ officially begin. But the first time Christianity/Catholicism became the official religion of the Roman Empire was 380AD. That is the beginning of ‘Papal Rome’ as you understand it, though you seem to not want to acknowledge it.

 

[MarkBrown]

I started this thread hoping someone would discuss the SCRIPTURE. Instead some people waited until I posted my understanding based off of that scripture and a few others and decided to attack me. Still, those people have failed to explain to me their understanding.

1. Your assumption of days of months does not fit with a Jewish calendar. Not every month has 30 days. As the Hebrew calendar is lunar and the modern in solar, the hebrew calendar falls behind 1 day for every approx 200 years. So your “reading” of scripture is
   flawed based upon lack of knowledge of basic hebrew time reckoning. Would you make an assumption that our solar months from the second month to the seventh month are all of equal 30 days? No, one is 28, except for leap year 29, the others 30 or 31 day months.
2. Since your math and assumptions of equal 30 day hebrew months is incorrect, your foundations for the rest of your assumption is wrong.
3. To apply your math to Christ in the wilderness, He was tempted by the Devil and wandered in the wilderness for 40 years? Each day being a year and all.
4. Your assumption that Numbers 14:34 is talking about prophecy is wrong. Especially when you go back to verse 26 and see that The Lord, God, is talking to Moses and is condemning the people of Israel to wander in the desert. For each day the spies were in the promise land, the people will wander a year in the wilderness until they have all died. Except Joshua and Caleb. To try and make this a prophecy shows a lack of understanding what is a prophecy and what is a judgment.
5. So, your assumptions on the days of a month are wrong. Your assumption of Numbers 14:34 as prophecy, as some magical formula is wrong. Your assumption of Daniel, as based upon Genesis and Numbers, wrong. Ezekeil 4, why do you ignore the prior verses that states 390 days of Israel and focus on Judah for 40 days? Is this prophecy or a reference to the 430 years the children were in bondage in Egypt?
6. Lets play a little prophecy game. Israel was carried into captivity in 597 BC. 430 years later Maccabees liberated Israel from the Seleucid empire. Maybe that is what God was telling Ezekeil. But since protestants have ignored certain books of scripture, we would not know of 1 and 2 Maccabbees. Therefore causing us protestants to come up with wild endtime prophecies. Also, sola scriptura tends to not allow us to read secular history to see how God’s hand has moved in guiding the timeline.

So, your scripture assumptions are based upon faulty reading of partial scripture, lack of political, religious historical understanding and faulty math based upon inaccurate formula.

I would suggest reading Josephus and Eusebius for good Jewish and early Christian history. Last Days Madness by DeMar for a laymens approach and the more scholarly Before Jerusalem Fell by Gentry for an academic approach to prophecy. Demar has another book, Myths, Lies and Half Truths about misreading and misapplying scripture. Then I would suggest reading Westminster Larger Catechism/Confession of Faith and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Teachings from two Christian groups on opposite sides of the theological spectrum.

If you read this suggested books, you will be better able to discern what you are being taught. Also, the websites that push the formulas you are using, very suspect in scholarship. Also very anti-catholic and bigoted. As a Christian, you should not fill your mind with such lies and falsehoods. Nor should you read it and try to past it along here.
Since most of those sites were Adventist in nature and you are quoting and pushing that agenda, I conclude you are an Adventist. If I respond to any of your other threads, I will do so with the understanding of the anti-catholic position you are hold.

Fr.Mark
ACNA

 

[Reuben_J]

Rueben, I explained that in post 12 if you would like to read it.

As for the discussion. If you all would like to discuss, I will do that. But to call me a liar when I have done nothing but give my understanding of the Bible is wrong. I asked for anyone to explain the verse and I think only 1 or 2 people did so.

If you disagree with my explanation, please give me yours and we can continue to have this discussion.

When people start to attack, I simply back away. If you would like to email me or send me a message about the discussion, that will be fine. But I do not do long discussions where there are attacks for many reasons.

1. posts are overlooked. Example: Rueben did not know that I explained his question/statement on the previous page.
2. people get irrational and ask irrational questions.
3. people get mad and do not read the material correctly.
4. people do not provide scriptures from the Bible to let others know where they get their explanation from.

So, I say this, if you would like to discuss, that’s fine. But to attack me, that’s not of God. And we are all here to serve God.

God Bless

I don’t think you know the seriousness of your accusation of the Catholic Church. Then as if that’s not enough, you use scripture to do it.

I only need to ask on the obvious (Gen 7) which you quoted and if you cannot with certainty provide the proof there, your contention on the whole interpretation of the verses you quoted would become baseless. That’s what I am getting at.

My answer to you - you cannot use assumption or Gregorian calendar to number the days in Gen 7 simply because when the Book was written these calendars were not invented yet. It would be nearly impossible to really count the days let alone to calculate time period based solely on the Book, the primary purpose which was never as such but to tell God’s history and action with his creations.

The Scripture is not a fortune teller foretelling specific dates or happenings in the years to come though you may well be able to do that. But if you do, you have to provide proof and have to be very sure on what you are talking about. You have set up years which can be disputed, so how can I believe your interpretation as a whole?

I can tell you that if I use you line of presenting Bible discussion in a Fundmentalist forum, I would be immediately banned by their moderators. So please think carefully before saying that others are accusing you here.

God bless you.

 

[Jon_Hus]

…Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. equals 1260 years. Lets do the math.

Time=1 year
Times=2 years
Dividing of time=1/2 year
Total is 3 1/2 years or 42 months

42 months times 30 days equals 1260 days. 42x30=1260

We know from the verses above that a day is for a year in prophecy only.
1260 days in prophecy equals 1260 years.

So, Religo-political papal Rome or church and state, reigned for 1260 years. From 538 AD to 1798 AD. During that time, over 150 million Christians were persecuted/killed.

Truth Seeker123,

I will venture a guess that you are either a SDA or Jehovahs Witness or some splinter of either one. Most likely a JW.

A question, if a day = year, as per 2 Peter 3:8, then the opposite should be true, a year = day. I know the JWs use their day/year rule to give God more than 1 literal week to create everything (Gen ch1). So, if a year = day, the the 1000 year kingdom (Rev 20) should actually be only 1000 days, right?

By the way, the pre- mil dispensational view of the matter above is the 3 1/2 years is the first part of the 7 year tribulation, which is the period before the return of Jesus. Papal Rome is not in the equation and Jesus did not return in 1798 which CTR (Russellites) first taught.

 

[fbl9]

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

persecution

Since you are going to use this one verse how about a quote by the Catholic church that speaks against the most high God…Honestly do you actually beleive that ridiculous number of 150 million…works out 330 persons per day 11,800(rough) per yr.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

persecution

dont worry, protestants did not exist back then. so the CC could not have killed none of you. i know that protestants without any reasoning at all try justify their existence by accusing the pope and the CC of killing Christians.

now, tell me when did the CC ever spoke great words against the Most High?