Update on forced conversion

[Dale_M]

Let’s say that Hamza is a great guy. So you have ONE guy on 911 saying it was a bad thing. Hooray. ONE guy.

Yes, it would be nice to see more condemnation of radicals by moderate Muslim leaders. On this we agree. But I need to point out that Hamza Yusuf was not talking about 9/11; he was talking about radicals in mosques right now. I don’t have links to support this point, but I seem to recall that quite a few Muslim leaders condemned the 9/11 attacks.

A little more on topic, I am not aware of any Muslim leaders speaking out against the forced conversion of the Fox news team. I would appreciate if anyone is aware of such an occurrence to let us know about it.

 

[cestusdei]

Always read what they say and don’t say. Sure they might condemn 911, but there is always a BUT they will also say we deserve it for supporting Israel etc. It’s called blaming the victim. None of them will say that Islam is the problem and needs to be reformed. Even if that is supremely evident. None will touch the real cause of Islamic terrorism as that would lead to becoming critical of Muhammed’s actions. Also read what they say in arabic when they think we are not listening www.memri.org. There are some real eye-openers. I won’t trust them until I see clear evidence that they oppose terrorism with the same verve they oppose cartoons of Muhammed.

 

[Milliardo]

Mill, he was the one that really got their nuke plans going.

No, I have to disagree with you on that. He wanted to foster closer ties with the U.S.; those who actually rule over Iran had other views. In effect, the President of Iran is nothing more than an almost-figurehead, much like the Queen of England is now–has title, but no actual power. The Ayatollah and his advisers are the ones running the show. So if Iran has a nuclear program, they’re the ones who got that thing, not Khatami.

He has made anti-semitic statements. His administration persecuted Jews and Christians. There is now a lawsuit pending against him for “disappearing” Jews in Iran.He supported and assisted terrorist groups that have killed Americans.

You’re generalizing, and couldn’t separate the actions of the Ayatollah from that of Khatami. I suggest first reading about the man and what he actually did before making such accusations.

He has had women stoned to death for adultery.

It’s sha’ria law; it’s Islamic law which he had nothing do with nor could he oppose it. To do so would make him suspect not only within Iran, but with Islam as a whole. As a Muslim he has no choice but to carry out what his faith asks him to do.

 

[cestusdei]

Feel free to read the sources I posted or google his quotes about how much he loves Hezbullah. It’s public record. While I appreciate your belief that stoning women is a wonderful thing I am afraid that we Christians find it barbaric. Thanks for showing us the true face of Islam. If you would like to see some pics of such things go to www.thereligionofpeace.com. Just scroll down. NB: These are graphic pics of what happens under sharia law.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I’m sure this won’t be a popular post. But after listening to an EWTN radio program I feel compelled to point something out. Let’s pause to remember that the reporters did have a choice. Let’s say they had to choose between Islam or death. They had the choice to choose death, did they not? Now hear me out before you slam me. Think of the martyrs, especially the early Christians. What if they had simply chosen to convert to Roman paganism? Where would Christianity be? Even if the “conversion” was in words only and they just recanted later. What would the impact have been on the Church throughout the ages if the martyrs had just “caved”?

Another disturbing point brought up on the program was: what does the bible say about denying Christ? Mt 10:33 ": but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. "

I’m not even sure if these reporters were Christian in the first place… since we are using the word conversion I am guessing so. If that be the case, we should pause and pray to God for mercy on the souls of those reporters. They denied Christ in front of men. The cost could be greater than their lives.

I really thought it was a harsh statement by the EWTN commentator when he brought up these points. After all we should consider that these guys were probably terrified. But they are good points, particularily when you think that the martyrs of the Church faced exactly the same choice. I am not judging these men, far from it, I am simply pointing out there was another choice that could have been made rather than publicly professing Islam. God give me strength should I ever face the same choice.

Anyway, none of this is an excuse for the atrocities of the Islamic terrorists. They are the gangrene of humanity.

 

[the_phoenix]

Hello Prayer_Warrior,

Along the lines of your post, another thought that comes to mind is this: How many of those who have been killed after being kidnapped in the Middle East did in fact choose Christ over their own earthly lives, and are in fact martyrs, only Al Jazeera has chosen not to broadcast it?

Could be there are some unsung heros among the victims.

~~ the phoenix

 

[undeserving]

Mark Shea in his blog Catholic and Enjoying it(markshea.blogspot.com) has something very pertinent to say about this subject…
Quote"I am not particularly appalled by the acts of these FOX guys since I have no particular reason to think they were betraying some u;timate trust.They will simply have been figuring"This will get me home to my family". If they were christians or jews, its a different story.But if they weren’t it seems to me we Christians have to do as Dante would have done and judge pagans by their standards not ours…To be suddenly appalled when a mans vision is no higher then a cow’s is a strange reaction to men who acted exactly as all our manufacturers of Culture programmed him to act."

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Mark Shea in his blog Catholic and Enjoying it(markshea.blogspot.com) has something very pertinent to say about this subject…
Quote"I am not particularly appalled by the acts of these FOX guys since I have no particular reason to think they were betraying some u;timate trust.They will simply have been figuring"This will get me home to my family". If they were christians or jews, its a different story.But if they weren’t it seems to me we Christians have to do as Dante would have done and judge pagans by their standards not ours…To be suddenly appalled when a mans vision is no higher then a cow’s is a strange reaction to men who acted exactly as all our manufacturers of Culture programmed him to act."

Yes, I agree with that. I, too, do not know whether these men were Christians prior to this “conversion”. But since the word “conversion” was used, I thought they might have been. However, while I agree with Mark Shea’s last thought on the subject, I, personally, am not appalled or suprised at how these men chose to act. I’m appalled and disgusted that they were forced to make such a choice (though not surprised at this terrorist tactic).

 

[cestusdei]

I hesitate to pass judgment, however if they were devout Christians they should have refused conversion even to the point of martyrdom. It would have shown the Islamic terrorists what a real martyr looks like and that Christianity is not weak. I will never convert or pay jizya (“protection” money). I put as my motto the words in arabic that mean “I will NOT submit”.

 

[Lance]

I hesitate to pass judgment, however if they were devout Christians they should have refused conversion even to the point of martyrdom. It would have shown the Islamic terrorists what a real martyr looks like and that Christianity is not weak. I will never convert or pay jizya (“protection” money). I put as my motto the words in arabic that mean “I will NOT submit”.

Well said Father.

أنا لن أقدّم

I believe this is a reasonable Arabic translation of “I will not Submit”.

 

[undeserving]

Amen to that, but someone else said that to our Lord-"Though all else foresake you, I will never …"or words to that effect, and we know what happened… Our flesh is weak, we can only be strong in Christ.

 

[YADA]

Just my two cents on the two reporters and whether they should have “Martyred” themselves for Christ.

The writings of the early fathers do not share your passion for the martyrdom of all Christians. In fact, while they praise those who did not cave in to the Roman demand to worship and sacrifice to false gods they also instruct Christians to live for Christ and not to seek martyrdom. I do not have my books with me tonight to look for the quotes [my apologies] but not all are graced with the courage and strength to give the ultimate.

Second, we have the gift of reconcilliation directly due to early Christians who were not able to gladly accept martyrdom. The early church had to wrestle with what to do with Christians who did; in fact; bow down to worship Caezar and/or made the sacrfices. This was hard on the Church. What do you say to the family of a martyred Christian who must accept back into the church community a person who lives and breaths because they ‘denied Christ’? Yet that is what the early church did.

One of the first terms used to describe this ‘reconcilliation’ was ‘second baptism.’ A study of the history of reconcilliation shows that the penances where arduous and fairly public. The penitents were brought back into communion during the celebration of the easter Mysteries. The Order of Cathechumens and the Order of Penitents were both unable to partake of the Eucharistic celebration until the community welcomed them at the Easter Vigil or during the Easter celebrations.

So for me, I’ll spend my time worrying about my own relationship to Christ. I pray that I will not “fail the test” And I am thankful for their safe return and ask God’s continued grace and peace in their lives.

 

[cestusdei]

As I said I don’t pass judgement on them. It should be noted, however, that they did not “seek” martyrdom. They were kidnapped. I will admit none of us know what we will do in that situation until we are in it. But we should laud the martyrs who made the ultimate sacrifice. I would treat these two men gently if they came to confession. Forgiveness is readily available. The main point here though is that they should not have been put into this situation. The blame lies on the Islamic terrorists and I would argue on Islam itself.

One Italian the Muslim terrorists killed ripped off his blindfold and said, “I will show you how an Italian dies.” He wanted to look them in the eye when they murdered him. I admire his courage and hope if and when it’s my turn that I can emulate it. That’s the spirit that shows no submission.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I am not sure anyone here has expressed a passion for the martyrdom of all Christians. I have a great respect for the courage shown by those Christians who chose death rather than to submit to their persecutors. It shows a deep love for Christ and a sincere belief in Him. In my original post, I only wanted to point out that there was another choice other than to proclaim conversion. Only God knows how to fairly judge these men for their choice. I am not judging them and if I appeared to be judgemental I apologize.

I agree that these men did not seek martyrdom and I think its highly probable that many martyrs did not seek martyrdom. ** If** I were in the same situation as those men were in (God fobid!) I would pray for the strength to become a martyr rather than submit to Islam. I think it is a serious issue and a serious sin to deny Christ if you know who He is. I just wanted to reflect on that a bit. Christ’s heart is an ocean of mercy and I know that if these men seek His forgiveness they will find it.

Cestusdei is correct. These men should never have been in this situation.