Update to old post (conflicted about someone)

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garegin_asatrya

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I need to get this off my chest because there’s really no one to turn to.
To get up to speed, you can check the posting “conflicted about someone”, which is from 2014. I’m not going to go through the whole story, because the other thread explains it. She’s now 27 and I’m 29. This thread is an update.
Recently, I’ve been thinking about and realized that I have a phobia of “coming on too strong”. Regarding the girl in this story, I am constantly petrified that I am gonna cross the line if I just say hi and invite her outside. I know she spends many evenings on the boardwalk anyway, but it’s just so scary to say anything. The only time I see her is when she comes to church with her mom.
Last time I saw her, she told me that she still remembers how I took her to college when she newly arrived in the country (I should have told her that I remember it was Saturday:)) Then she left her mom and friend and took me with her to run errands. I feel like these were hints, but I failed to respond.
After that day, something came over me. I just started missing her. It’s not even about love or no love. I just enjoy her company. Me and my parents saw her and her mom on the boardwalk a week ago and I just couldn’t open my mouth. I’m just too shy. I can’t even look at her when we talk because I have this constant fear that she might think I’m looking at her too much. (Yes, I have this issue in general with strangers, it’s a long story)
I know it’s stupid, but it’s easier said than done. But I just can’t take it anymore holding it inside year after year after year. We were supposed to go on a trip to Israel this year with my church, but my mom got sick, so I canceled it.
World would have been an easier place if people just said what they felt. But after being let down so many times by other people, I just can’t bear looking like an idiot anymore.
My mom asked me on two different occasions if I like her, but I lied and said a solid NO. It was so sudden I felt intimidated.
I know I sound like a 13 year old, but I just need to talk about it, instead of holding it inside.
P.S. Also something really cute happened last year. I was looking for my dad’s glasses in Prospect Park (miles away from our home in Brighton Beach) and I suddenly lifted my head and there she stood. This coincidence was something of a catalyst. After that I’m just bumping into her more and more…
What can I say or invite to that wouldn’t sound too strong? She and her mom moved out of the building a year ago. So they don’t live down straights anymore. I have this nagging guilt that we didn’t invite them for holiday dinner all those years, even though we were the only Armenians in the building.
Don’t misunderstand me. I don’t have phobias in general. I’m very chill when I’m with my friends, but get nervous around her.
Please pray for Shushan and her family. Even though they’re in perfect health 🙂
 
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This is a pretty high level of social anxiety. I’d encourage you to work through it with a therapist. I don’t think this is something internet pointers will overcome.
 
The funny thing I really don’t have social anxiety in regular life. But after getting shot down in my teen years so many times, I have this constant phobia of “not giving space”.
 
Don’t expect people here to read an old long thread to ‘get’ what you can’t summarize here, it’s not fair to ask that of us.

How is someone saying ‘no’ letting you down? They didn’t owe you a yes, they have no obligation to say yes.

Perhaps you should focus on giving clear signals yourself and communicating your interest. Learn to communicate ‘like’ without communicating ‘stalker’ and see how she responds, then go from there.
 
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I never said that people are supposed to say yes. As a matter of fact I despite that attitude that some people have that girls who say no are “uppidy b**** that deserve their karma”.
All I said was that my mentality is that I was doing something wrong and got cold feet. It’s called once bitten, twice shy.

“Learn to communicate ‘like’ without communicating ‘stalker’ and see how she responds, then go from there.”

I’m past that. The issue is inviting her to something.

I’m taking your advice and will combine the two posts once I get the time
 
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Good luck, I know it’s tough when you feel a very strong connection to someone but the relationship is still preliminary.
 
Hi. Do get therapy for that anxiety. You say the world would be an easier place to live if people said what they felt, so I do, for you — you really, really, need to start seeing a counsellor to help you deal with it (and I say deal, not cope; coping strategies are, in fact, part of what creates problems with women sometimes). I just don’t want to be so conventionally polite as to fail to show you the kindness I want to show you with this suggestion. 'Kay? 😉

And take it from a guy with the kind of anxiety that it was necessary to practice, as a 17 y.o., before even calling a girl — you need to just do it. That particular girl — unlike, admittedly, many other girls — might not actually care about how good your performance is going to be. Screw performance; the only time you get really bad results, even in a darned test, is when you just do nothing. But don’t think a silly compulsion to act, either. Women will not want to be pursued (or even asked out on a particular day, or touched, or kissed, or told a compliment) because you felt a compulsion, but because you felt desire. What they want from you is desire, and they don’t even want perfection from you at all. Chances are they want to be desired by their guy more than they want to have a guy who they themselves strongly desire, but it any case that girl might well have a desire (strong, potentially) for your company (if nothing else, as the case might be; friends are a good thing too, after all). Would you let that desire go unfulfilled? 'Course not.

Next, if you fear about how you’re going to be perceived, remember that analytical verbal explanation is always an option. There are even women who do that, as opposed to relying solely on their social graces and ability to convey messages through signs, hints and between the verses.

Besides, you’re always going to be you. If a girl doesn’t like the real you, then well, she doesn’t like you, and then she’s not your girl, so there’s no need for you to be losing your sleep. Or if she likes you ‘but not that way’, then that’s fine too, might as well get a friend and stop losing sleep worrying whether a potential romance would work out or not. Life’s too short for that.

So tell her about your problems. And don’t give a dime about how awkward or creepy you’re going to sound. Women don’t really mind (except some do, sometimes, but don’t care about that right now). They are very forgiving about your performing poorly, as long as you stay in the conversation. And they are very fussy about you at least trying. They are also very fussy about you being your authentic self (they hate it when you aren’t).
 
If you watch Game of Thrones, there’s a certain reason why even Tyrion Lannister of all people, and Sam Tarly, of all people, are not completely hopeless with women. And there’s a certain reason why ser Jorah Mormont is ‘Sir Friendzone’, why the insanely attractive dashing Jaime Lannister would probably not fare well in normal relationships (besides his sister), why Robb Stark the great young King in the North also had some issues in this regard (though he would cope and manage very well eventually, just like his father).

Besides, if, as a man, you meet a woman who really is your girl, then you get the kind of drive and ability and everything else that you don’t really care, you might even be hopelessly hopeless with women in general, you’ll still get her, even if she’s Miss Universe with a Ph.D. in rocket science and you flip burgers for a living and have a particularly bad case of acne. It just works that way, and women also are like that.

Women are aliens anyway. Don’t expect to understand them. You’re not really supposed to anyway. Just love them. And just try. Eh, don’t try; do. Just go do it. I’m not even going to wish you good luck; you don’t need it. This isn’t luck-based.
 
Thanks, your replies are very thorough. I’m only anxious around her (angry cops don’t count). Never had any anxiety or mental health issues. My friends even tell me that I have no filter and extroverted. It’s more of an issue of ignorance. I really don’t know what’s “pushing it”. I never hugged her (well, maybe when we first met, I don’t remember). Do you think it’s too tacky if I hug her and her mom next time. It feels weird everytime I shake their hands, because all my friends are so close, we never shake.
I keep feeling uneasy that we never invited them for dinner all these years, even though they lived downstraights. I would feel angry if someone wanted to date my daughter and wouldn’t give me the time of day (there’s some class divide involved, even though I don’t care) Keep in mind that they do talk over the phone all the time.
I’ll try to edge in suggesting a casual trip. She and her mom are very close, I don’t know if she’s approve if I go alone with her. Maybe it could be in a group.
Ughh. Just hate all the diplomacy and maneuvering.
The stupid thing is that if I was completely transparent I would’ve just told her that I need to spend time together to even know that I like her. She’s very nice, but you have to have deeper conversations than pleasantries to really be a close friend. I’ve know her for six years, but having heart to heart discussions is a different deal.
People are very forward with me and I’m never a jerk about it. Someone asked me if I was married and how old I am and even asked me where I was going and I didn’t go all uppidy witch mode. It’s just I had her on my mind, sorry … When my friends ask me about other girls we meet, I just wanna blurt out that “there’s someone else I know” instead of just shrugging my shoulders.
 
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Instead of targeting a ‘casual trip’ why not go for a ‘casual coffee’ or ‘casual movie and dinner’
 
Oh man, I so feel for you; you’re so much like my old sorry hide several (dozen?) romantic failures ago. I have the same problem the moment I start to care (not before; I used to switch to French when my old boss called to give me me work, but I would insist she was doing it to meet me in the corporate kitchen for a coffee; different story altogether if I actually feel something), but I can tell you as long as your problem isn’t pathological and as long as she doesn’t have problems, it should disappear once you begin to feel acceptance from her. You do need an amount of internal independence from women and their reception of you (the ability to relativize (the heck out of) their judgements about your person and behaviour when communicated to you), so to say, but there isn’t really that much you need around a girl who does actually care. Social skills, diplomacy, etc., it all becomes secondary at best and barely relevant if you just meet your girl. Just don’t overpromise yourself.

Including her mum isn’t a bad idea. Nobody says you can. Plus, she might like you. Besides, marry the girl, and the mother becomes your mother, so you’d be getting closer anyway. I do have recollections of buying two bunches of flowers at a time: one for the mother, one for the daughter. Nothing wrong with that. (Not that this is advice on what to do, mind you.)

Personally, I hate the whole group thing. I mean sure, I’d go to group meetings to fish out — and preferably stress on out, which is kinda necessary if the stress is to fall on fish. But not taking women to group activities for a date. Unless as my date. Which kinda defeats the point, because declaring herself as my escort is more, shall we say, obliging, than merely attending privately somewhere with me, for a coffee or so. Besides, I’d need to entertain the whole group, divide my attention… I don’t go to dates to interact with twenty people other than my date; that is not exactly my purpose — or rather exactly not my purpose. Still, you need to bear in mind I’m not from the US; I’m very old-school European, though somewhat laid-back. I know the sentiment on this is very different from my own in America, which is probably where you are. The whole group thing, for dates, is a big part of the culture. You, yourself, on the other hand, could perhaps think closer to my own lines. I don’t know, but you seem smart and confident enough to figure this out on your own, so I guess I’m just calling your attention to some possible problems.

‘If I was completely transparent I would’ve just told her that I need to spend time together to even know that I like her,’ — that’s what they normally want to hear at an early stage. You don’t want to scare them off by coming on too strong, but neither do you want them to see attention or interest is missing.
 
I’d even say: ‘I’ve know her for six years, but having heart to heart discussions is a different deal,’ is something you could tell her, not that I’d suggest the exact wording. Still, you’re open to the possibility of even you, not just her, finding some reason against becoming romantically involved, and you don’t seem to mind the possibility of it turning out just friends. Your expectations should be more than fine with any woman; in fact rather a close match for her own. (Which may change as you begin to care, and you may well begin to care before she does, which is part of why I’m single at 34 myself, and I really don’t want to see you go down the same path of misery.)

‘People are very forward with me and I’m never a jerk about it,’ — then women shouldn’t be hurting you too hard. Again, things may change once you begin to fear losing one specific girl, but even so, it looks to me like you should be better equipped to deal with such stuff than most people.

Also, do you have doubts? They say a faint heart’s never won a lady, but it’s not that the man himself is faint, or of faint heart. Sometimes all of you isn’t as much into a girl as some of your reactions to her would suggest. This said, you’re perfectly aware of the earliness of the stage.

So well, just go and tell her you’d like to spend some time with her to get to know her better if she doesn’t mind. Unless you need to say or do something else in order to be authentic (which is more important than finding the perfect wording).
 
Sure. It just seems unnatural to me. I always go to places with my friends. I don’t think I ever went to eat with my friends without it being part of going somewhere (even if that means hanging on the boardwalk).
When I say trip I’m not talking about Aspen. More like hanging out. She did tell me she wanted to go to the top of a building in times square, but I didn’t pick up on it that she probably wanted to go with me.
And yes I’m from New York, US. But we are both from Armenia.
 
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“Your expectations should be more than fine with any woman; in fact rather a close match for her own.”
I don’t understand the wording. Can you rephrase that.

P.S. I was thinking about what some people say here on the forums to single people that God should make someone complete and they don’t need a partner. But the thing is that God is perfect. He doesn’t get excited from learning something surprising, He doesn’t interrupt you or say something silly. I remember a rabbi making the point that the reason we have joketelling is because of uniqueness of people. If everyone was perfect in knowledge, they would be no jokes to share.
 
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Ok. Bit of an update. I was walking down the street yesterday and bumped into her. She was going to an opera with her mom and invited me too. It’s a small joint in Brighton Beach, not a fancy opera that people think of.
After the thing finished I overhead between her and her mom and she was going to a wedding tomorrow at 5 pm. Do you think I could text her today and ask her if I could come along? I really don’t know the etiquette of weddings because I don’t go to any.
As always, the lingering fear of not giving space.
 
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Heck no, you shouldn’t invite yourself along when you are not already invited to the wedding. She would ask you if she wanted company.

Why haven’t you just invited her out for coffee or a lunch/movie/dinner
 
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I will. It was kind of busy, because there were other family members.

The ticket was $75 and she wouldn’t let me pay for it when I texted her today. I’m suspecting she got them cheap, because she was inviting my mom too.
I’m thinking of politely asking for a dinner. I don’t want it to look like I’m trying to covertly sneak in an agenda.
 
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