"Upon These Thousands of Pebbles I Will Build My Churches"

[IanS]

Protestants:

Do you think it matters whether or not you go to church, or is it okay to just accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior in private?

If it is important to be involved in a church, does it matter which one you go to?

If it does matter, how do you know you are going to the right one?

If it doesn’t matter, how do you explain why so many Protestant churches teach so many different doctrines that contradict one another when God cannot contradict Himself? Yet they all claim to be teaching what Christ really intended.

Not trying to start an argument, just curious.

 

[BrianH]

Protestants:

Do you think it matters whether or not you go to church, or is it okay to just accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior in private?

 

[manualman]

Huh? Are you saying protestants don’t believe in truth? Can two demoninations that hold mutually contradictory beliefs both be right for their members!?! Does the Holy Spirit not care that earnest believers disagree on important matters?

Either Jesus changed the bread and wine into his flesh and blood, or he didn’t. Which is it? Either he established a priesthood to perpetuate this eucharist or he didn’t. Either he established a reliable authority for the interpretation of Scripture and Tradition, or he didn’t.

Where I grew up, we called thousands of tiny pebbles…

sand.

 

[IanS]

Protestants:

I do not think in terms of “THE RIGHT ONE”. That is more of a Church of Christ, Jehovah Witness, and Catholic way of thinking there is just one right church.
The answer is the same for Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox, unless one goes to a church they grew up in and never considered changing, you base your decision upon those factors you consider important.

Do you think it is okay to base your faith on what you grew up with, or what you feel, or what you personally consider to be important?

How do you explain how the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, Assyrian Church of the East and other Apostolic churches that rely on scripture and tradition teach different doctrine prior to any Protestants?

BH

I’ll include them, but there is only one Catholic Church. It is not a denomination. Among the other Apostolic churches, it is more of a “Head Among Equals” issue than teachings, Tradition, or doctrine.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Do you think it is okay to base your faith on what you grew up with, or what you feel, or what you personally consider to be important?

Hi, I think it is important to base my faith on what God teaches and what the bible says. I am not attending a church remotely like the one I grew up in. My church teaches the following: The Trinity, the bible is the sole authority from which we are to learn, Jesus Christ died on the cross and was ressurrected so we can go to heaven, salvation is as explained in Ephesians 8-10.
They teach much more but those are the most important. Those are my beliefs and I found them in my current church. Secondary, I looked for a church that had programs for my kids. I want my children to be as involved in church activities as possible. My church shows the fruit of the spirit mentioned in Galations 5:22. I know without a doubt that if I have a need I can call on my church family. I believe my church teaches the truth and even better they show the love of Christ. The people in my church walk the talk.

Im sure there are some people who dont but I havent met them yet.

 

[BrianH]

Do you think it is okay to base your faith on what you grew up with, or what you feel, or what you personally consider to be important?

If the faith is solid and based upon those areas that are important, sure, one does not have to change. Everyone goes into this decision with their presuppositions, while those can and do change, I do not see that any person utilizes a radicially different framework in regards to decisions about which Christian church they attend.

I’ll include them, but there is only one Catholic Church. It is not a denomination. Among the other Apostolic churches, it is more of a “Head Among Equals” issue than teachings, Tradition, or doctrine.

 

[servus]

Protestants:

Do you think it matters whether or not you go to church, or is it okay to just accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior in private?

If it is important to be involved in a church, does it matter which one you go to?

If it does matter, how do you know you are going to the right one?

If it doesn’t matter, how do you explain why so many Protestant churches teach so many different doctrines that contradict one another when God cannot contradict Himself? Yet they all claim to be teaching what Christ really intended.

Not trying to start an argument, just curious.

Dear IanS,

Salvation is an individual experience, while the corporate body of the Church is a place where people of like minded faith gather for fellowship. Jesus said, “Where one or more are gatehred in My name, I am in the midst of them”. He gave us the gospel, and His love, and commandments to guide us. Protestants beleive a teaching is true because of what is said, not who says it.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Dear IanS,

Salvation is an individual experience, while the corporate body of the Church is a place where people of like minded faith gather for fellowship. Jesus said, “Where one or more are gatehred in My name, I am in the midst of them”. He gave us the gospel, and His love, and commandments to guide us. Protestants beleive a teaching is true because of what is said, not who says it.

I couldn’t have said it better myself!

 

[Contarini]

Protestants:

Do you think it matters whether or not you go to church,

Absolutely. Jesus died to unite us to His Body, which is (on earth) the visible Church.

If it is important to be involved in a church, does it matter which one you go to?

You should attend your local parish church. Given the extreme divisions among Christians, one can’t avoid picking and choosing among the churches in one’s local neighborhood, but one should do so as little as possible.
This is an ideal that is very hard to practice.

Any community that adheres to the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation and practices the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper is a true local church. However, apostolic sucession and union with the See of Rome are both desirable, and given that one must pick and choose, either or both of those is a good reason for doing so. There are of course many other doctrinal and practical reasons that make one church preferable to another, but one should be careful in allowing one’s personal theological preferences to influence church-going. Simply to pick a church that teaches you what you already know is to defeat (in part) the purpose of the Church’s existence.

If it does matter, how do you know you are going to the right one?

Certainty is not important. Following the light we are given is all that matters. If we make a mistake, God can deal with that. In fact, God often uses our mistakes to accomplish his purpose. What matters is that we practice charity and humility and seek the truth with all our hearts.

If it doesn’t matter, how do you explain why so many Protestant churches teach so many different doctrines that contradict one another when God cannot contradict Himself? Yet they all claim to be teaching what Christ really intended.

First of all, no church is without internal disagreement. The Catholic Church does not pretend to legislate on every possible theological and practical issue. You certainly have a case that your Magisterium gives you guidance (unavailable to Protestants) on what points can be legitimately left open. But if you are saying that no theological disagreement whatsoever should be allowed, then this argument is totally impracticable and is not true of your own Church.

You have a case inasmuch as there is a difference between theology (i.e., mere opinion) and doctrine (what is taught as divinely revealed). I could argue that Catholics have not always agreed over space and time with regard to just what is theology and what is doctrine. But that would be a digression, so I will simply say that Protestant churches can mistake theology for doctrine and vice versa without implying that God contradicts Himself. You are assuming that a true church most only teach true doctrine, and must never confuse doctrine with matters of mere opinion (or vice versa). I deny the premise. A true church proclaims Christ as Lord and teaches the essential truths of the Gospel, but it may be very mixed up on secondary points.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Dear IanS,

Salvation is an individual experience.

This is one of the most unscriptural doctrines taught among Christians today. Scripture teaches exactly the opposite over and over again. To maintain your opinion, you have to ignore or explain away the entire Epistle to the Ephesians for starters. Ephesians does not speak of an individual experience but rather of God restoring all creation through Christ, and through the Church which is Christ’s Body and the fullness of the one who fills all things.

Individual salvation is not Christian salvation. It’s sheer Gnosticism.

Edwin

 

[mrs_abbott]

Hi, I think it is important to base my faith on what God teaches and what the bible says. I am not attending a church remotely like the one I grew up in. My church teaches the following: The Trinity, the bible is the sole authority from which we are to learn, Jesus Christ died on the cross and was ressurrected so we can go to heaven, salvation is as explained in Ephesians 8-10.
They teach much more but those are the most important. Those are my beliefs and I found them in my current church. Secondary, I looked for a church that had programs for my kids. I want my children to be as involved in church activities as possible. My church shows the fruit of the spirit mentioned in Galations 5:22. I know without a doubt that if I have a need I can call on my church family. I believe my church teaches the truth and even better they show the love of Christ. The people in my church walk the talk.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

IanS,

Yes it matters. If you look at the thousands of protestant denominations that exist and how they counterdict one another in their interpretations of scripture, I think you have a beautful and positive example of why Christ appointed Peter as head of His Church and endowed Him with infalability with respect to faith and morals.

Think about what the words Universal Church really means.

Also if you believe in Jesus then you know He came to serve, not be served. It is clear from the bible that He expects us to do good works. When you go to church give Him worship and praise and ask Him for help (grace) to live in His image [Jesus was very prayerful…].

Iowa Mike

 

[lak611]

ALLFORHIM;1802550:

I wish the CC I attended had activities for younger kids. It seems like CYO is the only one but that’s for high school aged folks.

My parish has CYO sports for the kids in the parish school. These are grade school (up to 8th grade). They also have Brownies and Girl Scouts, Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts.

 

[IanS]

Thannks for all your comments.

I often hear, “Well we can all agree on the important stuff in scripture”. I’m sorry, but my Bible doesn’t tell me what parts are important or that I have any right to make that determination.

The word, “Church” is mentioned in some form, one hundred and fourteen times in the New Testament of the King James Bible, whereas the word “Scripture” appears less than half that. Not that this simple observation has any bearing on the importance of the church, (the words, “Trinity” and “Incarnation” don’t appear at all), but it certainly does allude to the fact that having an established church here on earth was of great importance to our Lord.

So what kind of Church did Jesus Christ establish? If you ask a Baptist he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the Baptist Church, but it became corrupted. If you ask a Church of Christ pastor he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the Church of Christ, but it became corrupted. If you ask a, Evangelical Lutheran he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the E.L.C.A., but it became corrupted. If you ask a Mormon, he will tell you the same, but he will add that Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in the woods and reestablished what He really intended.

One thing they can all agree on is that it did become corrupt and the Catholic Church is the result. They cannot agree on when, how, or why, but they all know they must be somehow right. Otherwise, they have no reason to not be Catholic. Scholars, clergy, theologians, and lay people have fought and even killed one another over this for hundreds of years. If we are so passionate over this issue then obviously many do believe it is important and do believe there is only one correct answer.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

mrs_abbott;1802674:

My parish has CYO sports for the kids in the parish school. These are grade school (up to 8th grade). They also have Brownies and Girl Scouts, Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts.

Hi that is good. We have many programs I cant list them all. They are huge because the kids bring friends. We have Jr. High youth group that starts in 6th grade–8th and then Sr. high 9–12. My daughter brings alot of friends and they like it so they keep coming. What I like is that they have fun, they worship, they do service projects and once a month they devote special speakers to come in and talk about issues facing our teens today. They have already had church members talk about alcoholism, bulimia and I cant remember what the other one is.

Maybe that is where other churches go wrong, they dont have enough activities to keep their youth interested in church. My kids enjoy church because to them it is not just a boring service. They are learning to love the Lord and have fun doing it.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Hi that is good. We have many programs I cant list them all. They are huge because the kids bring friends. We have Jr. High youth group that starts in 6th grade–8th and then Sr. high 9–12. My daughter brings alot of friends and they like it so they keep coming. What I like is that they have fun, they worship, they do service projects and once a month they devote special speakers to come in and talk about issues facing our teens today. They have already had church members talk about alcoholism, bulimia and I cant remember what the other one is.

Maybe that is where other churches go wrong, they dont have enough activities to keep their youth interested in church. My kids enjoy church because to them it is not just a boring service. They are learning to love the Lord and have fun doing it.

Our diocese used to have programs like that but I guess they didn’t think they were necessary to fund anymore.
It’s a real downer because I really liked those programs in high school. They helped me become a more active and knowledgable Christian! :yup:

 

[VociMike]

Thousands of pebbles – isn’t that like sand?

And what’s that Scripture about building structures on sand?

 

[Contarini]

So what kind of Church did Jesus Christ establish? If you ask a Baptist he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the Baptist Church, but it became corrupted. If you ask a Church of Christ pastor he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the Church of Christ, but it became corrupted. If you ask a, Evangelical Lutheran he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the E.L.C.A., but it became corrupted. If you ask a Mormon, he will tell you the same, but he will add that Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in the woods and reestablished what He really intended.

One thing they can all agree on is that it did become corrupt and the Catholic Church is the result.

FWIW, I don’t think anything of the sort. I don’t think the first-century Church was exactly like any existing church, and I don’t think the Catholic Church is substantially any more corrupt (doctrinally I mean–it’s big and old and so it’s gathered a lot of barnacles, but that’s not what we’re talking about) than any other church–less so than many.

They cannot agree on when, how, or why, but they all know they must be somehow right. Otherwise, they have no reason to not be Catholic.

Well no. My reason for not being Catholic is that I have experienced God’s grace outside the Catholic Church, and I would have to cut my ties with the communities in which I have experienced this grace in order to be Catholic (and I would have to submit myself to numerous practical arrangements that seem to hinder or prevent certain particular experiences of grace that have been important to me).

Edwin

 

[BrianH]

So what kind of Church did Jesus Christ establish? If you ask a Baptist he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the Baptist Church, but it became corrupted.

probably ture

If you ask a Church of Christ pastor he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the Church of Christ,

Very true, that is what they would say

but it became corrupted.

If you ask a, Evangelical Lutheran he will tell you that Jesus established a church just like the E.L.C.A., but it became corrupted.

I seriously doubt this. Missouri Synod…perhaps…Wisconsin…probably

If you ask a Mormon, he will tell you the same, but he will add that Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in the woods and reestablished what He really intended.

yes

One thing they can all agree on is that it did become corrupt and the Catholic Church is the result.

That is completely not true.

They cannot agree on when, how, or why, but they all know they must be somehow right.

It is at this time I would how many Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, you must be aware of.

Otherwise, they have no reason to not be Catholic.

I do not think this way and this assumes that the other Apostolic churches are not more accurate, but that would be your perspective.

Scholars, clergy, theologians, and lay people have fought and even killed one another over this for hundreds of years. If we are so passionate over this issue then obviously many do believe it is important and do believe there is only one correct answer.

And that is scary to me. I am glad that majority of Catholics are probably not of this mindset.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

I think Pebbles is the wrong term. Sand would be a better analogy.

“Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.” (Mt. 7: 24-27 RSV)

That rock is the Catholic Church.