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NotWorthy
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Is that a pun???:clapping:
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Damascus
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Finally someone is picking up on my ways here…
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mrs_abbott
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Sorry, it’s just that I was told a couple of times that maybe I shouldn’t stay in the Church unless I am in “full communion” with the teachings.
It kinda got me down.
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Damascus
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Velour gets me down. So I just dont BUY it when I shop for clothes.Sorry, it’s just that I was told a couple of times that maybe I shouldn’t stay in the Church unless I am in “full communion” with the teachings.
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Damascus
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Funny I thought that post was just a cheap shot at trying to convert someone to the EOC.But I thought the Church was not in schism at that time!?!
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mrs_abbott
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Thanks for getting me to crack a smile!
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Fr_Ambrose
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I wanted to add what I did in the interests of honesty and full disclosure since very few Catholic websites seem aware of the historical facts - that the miracle occured in the Byzantine Church, the Patriarchate of Constantinople . In those centuries Southern Italy belonged to the Church of Constantinople.
So it was NOT a cheap shot! It was done for the sake of full and truthful information. And besides, if Roman Catholics can take enormous pride in what they see as the oldest eucharistic miracle in the world, why shouldn’t we?
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Damascus
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Wasnt his formula something like this?: (for his many women)
Beheaded, divorced, dead (one died while giving birth- had she stuck around longer who knows?) beheaded, divorced,
then he died. Didn’t he also contract syphillis? Wonder why? So odd that one would want to follow something that started off this way.
Hey -sign me up for that religion!
I’ll stick with Peter thanks.
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MrS
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At this rate the schism is going to have a start date pre-Christ.
Your post would imply that there were two churches, two sources of authority, two sets of rules as it were… both claiming one Christ.
But perhaps you are right, ,… if you did not then recognize the pope as the only Rock, then protestantism did not wait till the 1500’s to rear its head.
How sad.
.
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Fr_Ambrose
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There is one aspect of our common Church (pre-the 1054 schism) which is very interesting. Southern Italy at that period followed the Byzantine regulations allowing divorce and sacramental remarriage. And yet only a few miles further north where Italy came under papal authority, it was not allowed. This never caused any problems with the Pope; there is no record that he ever protested that Catholic bishops in Italy were sanctioning divorce and remarriage.At this rate the schism is going to have a start date pre-Christ.
Your post would imply that there were two churches, two sources of authority, two sets of rules as it were… both claiming one Christ.
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MrS
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So… why would the pope’s reaction matter to you when you don’t consider his office relevant.
Yet… you imply that he could have protested those Catholic bishops. And I agree. He could have because they too were and are subject to his authority. Much of the understanding of Catholic doctrine take some time. And when then decisions are final, it is the Pope who declares such. His decisions were and still are authoritive to all Christians in all ages and in all places.
You, and all separated brethren are subject to his authority… whether you agree or not… whether you like it or not.
Someday we all will be one. Come home to Rome.
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Fr_Ambrose
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Up until the year 1054 and the Great Schism the Popes of Rome were part of my Church. That is why what they did is relevant in this historical period.
As you must know, soon after the Schism and up until the Vatican II, the Popes issued many many statements that my people, Orthodox Christians, were condemned to hell for not being in communion with the Pope. (See a couple of such papal statements below)
By using the Keys entrusted to them they condemned literally millions of us to the eternal fire. By using the Keys in this way they made themselves into the greatest enemy of the salvation of Orthodox Christians. So, I don’t think we will ever “come home to Rome” when such a great injustice has been done to us by so many Popes.
Although the Popes have softened and changed their teaching since Vatican II, they have still not used the power of the Keys to liberate all the Orthodox whom they sent to Hell over the last 9 centuries.
“It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.”
~ Pope Pius IX, died 1878
“O Mary Mother of Mercy and Refuge of Sinners! We beseech thee to look with pitying eyes on poor heretics and schismatics. Do thou, who art the Seat of Wisdom, enlighten the minds wretchedly enfolded in the darkness of ignorance and sin, that they may clearly recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found.”
~ Pope Pius XII, died 1958
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Damascus
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Oh, the injustice of it all!
Why would the EOC care at all? If they did, they wouldnt have got themselves into this mess. If they did not, then how can it be injustice? How can something that is done by someone you refuse to recognize matter to you?
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Fr_Ambrose
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Do you, as a Catholic, believe it is just that many many Popes used the power of the keys to send millions of Orthodox Christians to Hell?
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NotWorthy
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Fr. Ambrose, I don’t think you really believe that the Pope sent millions of Christians to Hell, now do you?
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Fr_Ambrose
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Dozens of official statements from Popes can be produced to say exactly that. Many of these statements are almost certainly infallible. Look at the words of Pope Pius IX above; he declares the teaching is*** de fide***.
Or Pope Boniface “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
Look at the declaration of Pope Eugene IV below - it has all the marks of an infallible papal teaching - "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims…
These are just a tiny sampling of this teaching which is reiterated by Pope after Pope right up to Pope Pius XII in the 1950s on the very eve of Vatican II.
Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445):
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
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Damascus
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Hey, you just have to draw the line somewhere when you have disobedient Patriarchs in the EOC that put their flock in jepordy like this.
You cant be sent to hell by a Pope you dont recognize. If you thought of him as such you would have corrected the situation.
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Damascus
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We all know how he feels about the Pope. Let him vent. He needs to get it out.
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Fr_Ambrose
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You are saying that the power of the Keys is ineffective against heretics and schismatics. In that case you would, I think, be in heresy since the Popes teach otherwise.
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Fr_Ambrose
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Either you believe that the Popes have the authority of the Keys and have sent millions of Orthodox to Hell, or you believe it is all a bit of a joke and the Popes could not do that -even though they themselves very clearly believe that they can and issued many statements saying so.
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