Upon This Rock

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Fr_Ambrose said:
You are saying that the power of the Keys is ineffective against heretics and schismatics. In that case you would, I think, be in heresy since the Popes teach otherwise.
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I am not saying any such thing. You do not consider yourself to be a heretic or schismatic.

You think we are.
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
Either you believe that the Popes have the authority of the Keys and have sent millions of Orthodox to Hell, or you believe it is all a bit of a joke and the Popes could not do that -even though they themselves very clearly believe that they can and issued many statements saying so.
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I think you believe millions of Catholics are going to hell.
 
Quick question: Is the only difference between Orthodox and Catholicism is that Orthodox don’t recognize the Pope as head of the Church?
 
mrs_abbott said:
Quick question: Is the only difference between Orthodox and Catholicism is that Orthodox don’t recognize the Pope as head of the Church?
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From “The Orthodox Church” by Bishop Kallistos (Timothy Ware):

"…a passage to Orthodoxy seems indeed like an apostasy from the past, from its science, creed, and life. It is rushing into a new and unknown world

"Christians in the West, both Roman and Reformed, generally start by asking the same questions, although they may disagree about the answers. In Orthodoxy, however, it is not merely the answers that are different- the questions themselves are not the same as in the West.

“A new and unknown world”: Khomiakov was right to speak of Orthodoxy in this way. Orthodoxy is not just a kind of Roman Catholicism without the Pope, but something quite distinctive from any religious system in the West."

For a wider context please see:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1412689&postcount=22
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
Do you, as a Catholic, believe it is just that many many Popes used the power of the keys to send millions of Orthodox Christians to Hell?
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not buying it…

Even Jesus does not condem any of us to hell… we condem ourselves, and it is His judgment that the sentence be carried out.

It is beginning to appear you know less about popes than I was willing to give credit for.:rolleyes:
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
Either you believe that the Popes have the authority of the Keys and have sent millions of Orthodox to Hell, or you believe it is all a bit of a joke and the Popes could not do that -even though they themselves very clearly believe that they can and issued many statements saying so.
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The popes were merely re-iterating what was professed by the Early Church, but perhaps it touches a nerve because this time they are talking about YOUR (schismatic) faith.

Ignatius proclaims:
Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism *, he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine *, he has no part in the Passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3-4:1 [A.D. 110]). **
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You know full well that the Catholic Church does not teach that all Orthodox are in hell, but that we are simply teaching the faith which is given us from the apostles, which is, that there is no salvation outside the Church.
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You are saying that the power of the Keys is ineffective against heretics and schismatics
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. In that case you would, I think, be in heresy since the Popes teach otherwise.

What a load of nonsense. One can only schism from what he knows. Heresy is only heresy in reference to Truth.

I believe that you would not be able to cite a single reference, from anybody (Pope, ECF or other Catholic) saying otherwise!

Peace and God Bless!
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Fr_Ambrose said:
Dozens of official statements from Popes can be produced to say exactly that. Many of these statements are almost certainly infallible. Look at the words of Pope Pius IX above; he declares the teaching is*** de fide***.
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That’s not what I asked.
Code: 
  			Originally Posted by **NotWorthy** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1606922#post1606922) 				
  		*Fr. Ambrose, I don't think you really believe that the Pope sent millions of Christians to Hell, now do you?*
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mrs_abbott said:
Quick question: Is the only difference between Orthodox and Catholicism is that Orthodox don’t recognize the Pope as head of the Church?
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I thought there were only some disciplinary issues:

Married priests and leavened bread come to mind.
 
Damascus said:
Wasnt his formula something like this?: (for his many women)
Beheaded, divorced, dead (one died while giving birth- had she stuck around longer who knows?) beheaded, divorced,

then he died. Didn’t he also contract syphillis? Wonder why? So odd that one would want to follow something that started off this way.

Hey -sign me up for that religion!

I’ll stick with Peter thanks.
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Just had to clarify this. The “formula” is divorced, beheaded, died (in childbirth), divorced, beheaded, survived (because the king died).

Now back to the topic at hand. 🙂
 
NotWorthy said:
I thought there were only some disciplinary issues:

Married priests and leavened bread come to mind.
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Dont forget in SOME cases in SOME places Birth control is OK!

No consensus on that one.

THere is MORE

PS deny IC dogma.

More…
 
MrS said:
Even Jesus does not condem any of us to hell… we condem ourselves, and it is His judgment that the sentence be carried out.

It is beginning to appear you know less about popes than I was willing to give credit for.:rolleyes:
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Dear MrS,

I am sure that I do not underestiante your knowledge but all the same, here are a few statements from some Popes who, as Vicars of Jesus, used the power of the Keys to exclude non-Catholics from salvation.

Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes “in concrete,” so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:

Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
 
And I totally agree with the teaching of these popes… The Church which is the Bride of Christ, the body of believers, and most importantly Christ Himself… is the only way to the Father.

St Paul learned this when he was struck down “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?” Christ is the Church.

If you choose to try to get to heaven outside of the Church=Christ, you will condemn yourself. I did not see any where in you list of quotes where a pope condemned you to hell for your erronious beliefs. You are making that choice with your free will. God’s mercy is your only hope when you reject Him. But the mercy for you ends with the end of your life.

I hope you don’t hear the words “Suprise, time’s up” and then have to accept the judgment you have chosen… not chosen by the pope.

.
 
Double posting double talk.😃 Father.

I am most confident that your time could be better spent on Wiki since you have made the claim you are more reliable as a source of knowledge.

(on another thread- Linus)

Your humility is astounding.
 
MrS said:
And I totally agree with the teaching of these popes… The Church which is the Bride of Christ, the body of believers, and most importantly Christ Himself… is the only way to the Father.

St Paul learned this when he was struck down “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?” Christ is the Church.

If you choose to try to get to heaven outside of the Church=Christ, you will condemn yourself. I did not see any where in you list of quotes where a pope condemned you to hell for your erronious beliefs. You are making that choice with your free will. God’s mercy is your only hope when you reject Him. But the mercy for you ends with the end of your life.

I hope you don’t hear the words “Suprise, time’s up” and then have to accept the judgment you have chosen… not chosen by the pope.

.
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Mrs,

He does think he is in the true chuch. We are the Schismatics here. Get your facts straight already.

We also know that they have much more animosity for us than we do for them.

Wonder why?

Its hardly a brain teaser. Lets pray for Father. Not argue with him. He is a good man as an individual.
 
Fr_Ambrose said:
My previous questions have not been answered. There seems little point in moving on until we have answers for them.
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I’m sorry. You threw the pitch out, and now you don’t want to go chase after it?

P.S. Guess what I’m watching tonight??? 🙂
 
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