Upon This Rock

[Damascus]

Not Worthy,

He finally made a concession on this point on my thread about Linus on his side of the forum.

If you want to see his generous response go check it out.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Double posting double talk. Father.

I am most confident that your time could be better spent on Wiki since you have made the claim you are more reliable as a source of knowledge.

There are some serious errors in Wiki articles. We all know that. Anyone can get on Wiki and post articles and change other people’s. Some of the articles on Orthodoxy make me cringe - now why would you think that these ill-informed people are a more reliable source of knowledge than me?

 

[Damascus]

There are some serious errors in Wiki articles. We all know that. Anyone can get on Wiki and post articles and change other people’s. Some of the articles on Orthodoxy make me cringe - now why would you think that these ill-informed people are a more reliable source of knowledge than me?

I dont say that. I say you should spend your time correcting errors on wiki.

If you did, the errors you see on Orthodoxy would not be effecting the many who see it.

But you would rather speak ill of the Papacy here. So bitter.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Answer: your attempt to knock the Papacy going to come off as sour grapes.

Instead of addressing the point I raised -the use of the authority of the Rock and the power of the Keys to remove the hope of salvation (prior to Vatican II) from the Orthodox and all those not in communion with Peter - people here are getting emotional and are throwing ad hominems at me. This is the Apologetics section, gentlemen, and let’s do some upfront apologetical work without the mudslinging.

 

[NotWorthy]

Fr. Ambrose,

Does the Catholic Church teach that those who are baptized in the correct Trinitarian formula that happen to be Orthodox are going to hell?!?

 

[Damascus]

Instead of addressing the point I raised -the use of the authority of the Rock and the power of the Keys to remove the hope of salvation (prior to Vatican II) from the Orthodox and all those not in communion with Peter - people here are getting emotional and are throwing ad hominems at me. This is the Apologetics section, gentlemen, and let’s do some upfront apologetical work without the mudslinging.

Thank you for the fraternal correction. No one is removing hope of salvation to the Schismatic Orthodox here. Your attempts to prove otherwise, notwithstanding.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Does the Catholic Church teach that those who are baptized in the correct Trinitarian formula that happen to be Orthodox are going to hell?!?

We can choose two short statements which sum up the papal teaching on this in the centuries prior to Vatican II.Pope Pius IX (died 1878) — "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved…
Pope Boniface VIII (Unam Sanctam, 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Although Vatican II never annulled this teaching and the recent Popes have not used the power of the Keys to release from Hell those who are there because of their predecessors’ decisions, the post-Vatican II Popes do not affirm this teaching any more.

So, to answer your question: If you are talking about, say, the year 1878, the answer is Yes.

If you are talking about the year 1978, the answer is No.

 

[MrS]

I think the root of the problem here is that the good Fr. Ambrose, inspite of much education and study, does not understand the theology of “Outside the Church there is no Salvation”

Fr, it appears your concept is more towards Finney-ism than the true meaning as taught by Holy Mother Church, and expressed pretty well in a book of the same name by Fr. Stravinskas(?).

Can I send you a copy?

It would please me, and it would be in keeping with your request for more apologetics.

Mr S
.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

I think the root of the problem here is that the good Fr. Ambrose, inspite of much education and study, does not understand the theology of “Outside the Church there is no Salvation”

Fr, it appears your concept is more towards Finney-ism than the true meaning as taught by Holy Mother Church, and expressed pretty well in a book of the same name by Fr. Stravinskas(?).

Can I send you a copy?

It would please me, and it would be in keeping with your request for more apologetics.

Mr S
.

Thank you but no thank you. I don’t need any books from such excommunicated Catholics. Life is too short.

But I think that it is too facile to ignore the clear teachings of the Popes for many many centuries simply by associating it with this Feeney character. Feeney’s misrepresentation no more represents the real papal teaching than Pope Pius XIII in New York is the real Pope. People should not pretend they are the same.

 

[Damascus]

Thank you but no thank you. I don’t need any books from such excommunicated Catholics. Life is too short.

But I think that it is too facile to ignore the clear teachings of the Popes for many many centuries simply by associating it with this Feeney character. Feeney’s misrepresentation no more represents the real papal teaching than Pope Pius XIII in New York is the real Pope. People should not pretend they are the same.

I think reading this post makes me wonder why on earth we treat the SSPX the way we do and cow tow to these schismatics.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

I think reading this post makes me wonder why on earth we treat the SSPX the way we do

Isn’t the RC attitude to the SSPX people becoming warmer? I think I read that it is.

and cow tow to these schismatics.

In what way are you cowtowing to “these schismatics”? Do you mean the Orthodox or the SSPX?

 

[Damascus]

Isn’t the RC attitude to the SSPX people becoming warmer? I think I read that it is.In what way are you cowtowing to “these schismatics”? Do you mean the Orthodox or the SSPX?

Tell me how you are any different. NOT the ones of PAST, but the ones NOW.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Tell me how you are any different. NOT the ones of PAST, but the ones NOW.

Orthodoxy is The Church - the Una, Sancta, Catholica et Apostolica Ecclesia of the Creed.

I do not know if the SSPX people believe this of thermselves?

 

[Damascus]

Orthodoxy is The Church - the Una, Sancta, Catholica et Apostolica Ecclesia of the Creed.

I do not know if the SSPX people believe this of thermselves?

Selective amnesia.

 

[Damascus]

I am tierd Father- and am NOT running from your posts I will be back.
You can explain some documents you “forgot” about to everyone later.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Selective amnesia.

I really do not know what you mean.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

I am tierd Father- and am NOT running from your posts I will be back.
You can explain some documents you “forgot” about to everyone later.

I can see that you are determined to attack me and accuse me of dishonesty. But again I have to say that I do not know what you mean. What documents? Can you please explain.

 

[StMarkEofE]

We can choose two short statements which sum up the papal teaching on this in the centuries prior to Vatican II.Pope Pius IX (died 1878) — "It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved…Pope Boniface VIII (Unam Sanctam, 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Can these statements from two Popes be considered Ex Cathedra??? And if they are, how does this effect present RC teaching on the subject?

 

[MrS]

Thank you but no thank you. I don’t need any books from such excommunicated Catholics. Life is too short.

But I think that it is too facile to ignore the clear teachings of the Popes for many many centuries simply by associating it with this Feeney character. Feeney’s misrepresentation no more represents the real papal teaching than Pope Pius XIII in New York is the real Pope. People should not pretend they are the same.

I hope you will read theology with more attention that you gave to my post.

1] The book offered is NOT by Feeney… it is by Stravinskas

2] None of the Popes could be associated with Feeney, and it was he (FEENEY) who was excommunicated.

3] And you are right, people should not pretend they are the same… you should not pretend to yourself or to others that you are not in schism.

I understand and accept that that is what you believe. You may be sincere… but you are sincerly wrong.

by the way… selective amnesia… you are obvious in what you choose to forget. Marry that with revisionist history and the offspring is the schism you find yourself in.

But again, the offer of the book still stands. no charge, no postage… Free
.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

I hope you will read theology with more attention that you gave to my post.

To be honest, when I saw that Feeney was misspelt as “Finney” ( Finney-ism) I did not pay too much attention after that.

1] The book offered is NOT by Feeney… it is by Stravinskas

2] None of the Popes could be associated with Feeney, and it was he (FEENEY) who was excommunicated.

3] And you are right, people should not pretend they are the same… you should not pretend to yourself or to others that you are not in schism.

I understand and accept that that is what you believe. You may be sincere… but you are sincerly wrong.

We know that we are The Church. What’s to pretend?!

by the way… selective amnesia… you are obvious in what you choose to forget. Marry that with revisionist history and the offspring is the schism you find yourself in.

Are we going to get back to debating “Upon this Rock” or has the thread deteriorated into a slanging match?

But again, the offer of the book still stands. no charge, no postage… Free
.

This is genuinely generous of you but I live in New Zealand and don’t want to put you to any expense with postage.