Upon This Rock

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mrs_abbott

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Where in the Bible is the verse where Jesus tells Peter that "upon this rock I shall build my church? I used to know but for now, I’m drawing a huge blank. 🙂
 
Matthew 16:18
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
 
Karin said:
Matthew 16:18
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it
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Thank you very much! I was looking in Matthew but I guess I didn’t go back far enough. 😛
 
Ok since I started this thread, I’m going to change the direction of it, just a little bit. 🙂
I’ve asked this question before but I am looking for concrete evidence to support theories and ideas.
Ok, Matthew 16:18-19 is as follows:
***18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." ***
Out of this passage alone, is their enough evidence that the Catholic Church is the “church” that is referenced here?
Can’t the “binding and loosing” be applied to each person individually? Like Jesus was instructing his apostles to spread the Word of God, as we are called to do today?
These are just questions, mind you, about possible bible interpretations. These don’t reflect my personal beliefs so no bashing please.
 
mrs_abbott said:
Ok since I started this thread, I’m going to change the direction of it, just a little bit. 🙂
I’ve asked this question before but I am looking for concrete evidence to support theories and ideas.
Ok, Matthew 16:18-19 is as follows:
***18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." ***
Out of this passage alone, is their enough evidence that the Catholic Church is the “church” that is referenced here?
Can’t the “binding and loosing” be applied to each person individually? Like Jesus was instructing his apostles to spread the Word of God, as we are called to do today?
These are just questions, mind you, about possible bible interpretations. These don’t reflect my personal beliefs so no bashing please.
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Mrs_Abbott,

I think that it is important to remember that we cannot take only one Scripture to base the foundation of the Catholic Church. This scripture can not be read in a theological vaccuum. It must be read in a historical and theological context. As St. Augustine said: The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed. This is a great example of where the Sacred Tradition comes into play. This verse cannot be understood correctly without understantding the background of Jewish people and what was meant when Christ spoke this analogy. What probably would have popped into the Jewish mind were three things: 1) in Isaiah 51 where Abraham was called a rock,and more importantly Daniel’s interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. (Daniel 2) This dream is quite a symbolism of the Church being established. It is also quite interesting that in the light of this that Peter was named the Rock. Also look in Matthew prior to this statement where Jesus gives the parable of the Wise Man who builds His house on the Rock.

The next function would be to look at the meaning of giving keys to someone. This would symbolize again to the Jews of someone being left in charge of a Kingdom in absence of the King.( a vizier of such and a prohetic symbolizm is noted in Isaiah 22: 17-25). In light of this, the picture is that Christ is the King of the Kingdom. He is leaving. He gives the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter (the Rock) and commands him the charge of the Church until He returns.

I could go further but this is a quick synopsis and hope that this helps somewhat
 
mrs_abbott said:
Matthew 16:18-19 …
Out of this passage alone, is there enough evidence that the Catholic Church is the “church” that is referenced here?
Can’t the “binding and loosing” be applied to each person individually? Like Jesus was instructing his apostles to spread the Word of God, as we are called to do today?
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In Matthew 16:19, Jesus is talking to Peter and the “you” is singular. In Matthew 18:18, Jesus makes the same comment with “you” in the plural, while talking to the disciples as a group.

As for which church, the answer is definitely the catholic Church: the one, undivided church which Jesus’ disciples founded. Whether the church of Rome constitutes the entirety of that one Church is an issue which some have been arguing about for quite a while.
 
Peter is given the power to bind and loose and the keys to the kingdom in Chapter 16, In chapter 18, they are all given the power to bind and loose, but they are not given the keys Peter was the only one given the keys back in chapter 16
 
Many Protestants would insist that when Jesus said, “Upon this rock I shall found my church,” the rock he was referring to was Peter’s asseveration in verse 14: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”
IMHO, the Pope is the spiritual leader of all Christians, whether or not they acknowledge him as such, but he’s not infallible and we’re not obliged to do everything he says.
 
The Pope and the bishops in union with him are infallible on the matter of faith and morals. Did you mean to say he was not impeccable? It’s true, he is not impeccable. He is a sinner. He goes to confession just like everyone else does. In fact, from what I have heard he goes more often than the vast majority of Catholics.
 
Xenogeek said:
IMHO, the Pope is the spiritual leader of all Christians, whether or not they acknowledge him as such, but he’s not infallible and we’re not obliged to do everything he says.
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That’s interesting. It’s a point that I ponder myself from time to time. :hmmm:
 
I
Xenogeek said:
MHO, the Pope is the spiritual leader of all Christians, whether or not they acknowledge him as such, but he’s not infallible and we’re not obliged to do everything he says.
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I would have to disagree with that statement. For somebody to be a leader, you must have someone following, or else you are just taking a long walk by yourself. In other words, if the Protestant community doesn’t look toward the Holy Father for guidance on faith in morals, and despise the Holy Catholic Church, then he is not their leader.

In regard to infallibility, remember that the Church teaches that the Holy Father is infallible only when he speaks “ex-cathedra” in the matters of faith and morals. He is not infallible in every area of his life.

For example, if he said the Cards would win the World Series, (although he probably is right)😃 , that shouldn’t be taken as an infallible statement.
 
I just wanted to say that biblegateway couldn’t be all that bad.

If you look at Scott Hahn’s web-page you will see a link called “All-in-One Bible resources search page” click here (you’ll have to scroll down toward the bottom of the page to see the link) If you were to click on the link provided on his web-page you will be directed to a link that offers biblegateway.com as one of the options.

It’s not prefect but it does help…seeing Non-Catholics do use things like the KJV, NIV, and Amplified Bible etc…

However, I tend to cross-reference passage with what is in NAB I have here at home, or used this web-link to see the passages from the NAB.
 
Try this link too…

I know it is Protestant as well, but it also offers the Greek/Hebrew along with the English Translation and several flexible options. I also use this one alot in addition to the USCCB Bible site…

studylight.org/isb/
 
I remind myself that the bible is loaded with examples of God using humans in authority roles to communicate to his people.

Noah
Abraham
Moses
David
Jesus (fufiled by him)
Jesus established a Church with persons he gave authority to.

Read the book of Numbers and see how those who felt “all were equal” in authority ended up. A cautionary tale if not downright scary.

Three rebels tried to stir the pot with Gods people in this story. They made some charges against authority.
Of course they ended up dead.

Read Numbers 12:7-8 and Numbers 16: 2-3.
If time permits read the whole thing.

Reformers dont fare well in the big picture. Defiance to authority God sets up is met with, well I’ll let you decide. Its far too risky a stand to take IMHO.
 
Sabda said:
The Pope and the bishops in union with him are infallible on the matter of faith and morals. Did you mean to say he was not impeccable? It’s true, he is not impeccable. He is a sinner. He goes to confession just like everyone else does. In fact, from what I have heard he goes more often than the vast majority of Catholics.
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I’m not obliged to believe the Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals because I’m not a Roman Catholic. I tried hard to become one but I just wasn’t good enough 🙂 So I became an Anglo-Catholic instead. That means I go to an Anglican church and I do a lot of Roman Catholic things, like praying the Rosary, crossing myself with holy water and abstaining from meat on Fridays . . . things which most Roman Catholics do NOT do. Most of them don’t believe the Pope is infallible either.

For what it’s worth, I believe that the Magisterium is right 95% of the time. I follow Anglo-Catholic doctrine where it deviates from Roman doctrine. ACs believe, for example, that Purgatory is not necessarily a place of punishment. We believe that “Some should, all may, none must” receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Divorce and remarriage is a great sin but it’s not an impediment to receiving the Eucharist. Other than that, we believe pretty much the same things as you Papists 🙂
 
DARichards said:
I
  • if the Protestant community doesn’t look toward the Holy Father for guidance on faith in morals, and despise the Holy Catholic Church, then he is not their leader.*
I meant that we should do what the Pope tells us to do if it is at all possible, but a Christian cannot be forced to do something against his conscience. See CCC 1782.
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