Upset and confused by Catholic traditionalists

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

From reading the OP’s posts – he does not sound as painting Catholics with a broad brush – but was referring to a “group” within Traditionalism. Now – trying to “cover” for the “Mad trads” – by pointing out the “mad libs” – doesn’t make the “Mad trads/radical trads/toxic trads” – any less "Mad/radical

I wasn’t referring to his post. I was referring to other posts.

Who’s covering for “Mad trads”? I’m just pointing out that it exists all over and wherever you find human beings. :tiphat:

---

You did post “Mad trads” – which was mentioned in one of the OP’s posts.

And when the valid concern of the problems/danger with “radical/toxic/mad” “Traddism” come up – It looks like a mode of “deflection” away from it – is to point in the other direction.

Lormar:

Originally Posted by Lormar View Post
“Mad trads”? Let me tell you about “mad libs” in my parish who ran out a wonderful priest because he had the “audacity” to tell us that abortion was evil.

Please stop painting Catholics with a broad brush. No matter where you go, you will find the same type of people.

 

[Lormar]

---

You did post “Mad trads” – which was mentioned in one of the OP’s posts.

And when the valid concern of the problems/danger with “radical/toxic/mad” “Traddism” come up – It looks like a mode of “deflection” away from it – is to point in the other direction.

Have a nice day!

 

[CB_Catholic]

---

From reading the OP’s posts – he does not sound as painting Catholics with a broad brush – but was referring to a “group” within Traditionalism. Now – trying to “cover” for the “Mad trads” – by pointing out the “mad libs” – doesn’t make the “Mad trads/radical trads/toxic trads” – any less “Mad/radical/toxic”.

The OP asked for advice on how to resolve his internal struggle, and at first people seemed to be helping. Now, he is being criticized rather than helped. Instead of thoughtfully considering what he has said, people get defensive and react and attribute thoughts and behavior to him that do not exist. Then the person who really wanted some help gets dragged through the mud.

You know, people, sometimes our thoughts become intrusive, our emotions get a little our of our control, and there is not one single person here who has not had that happen to them. So give the man a break. He realizes he needs to change his thoughts or get rid of the intrusive ones and the emotions he does not want, and he asked for help. Some of the responses he has received are out of line and off topic, even. How do you like it when that happens to you? If I were the OP I would go to a priest or other person who is spiritually sound for advice, not these forums.

 

[Mark121359]

Do you also get this upset by the liberal faction in the Church?

Those people are much easier to correct and refute. I have found that many who subscribe to left-wing heresies often do so out of ignorance, or because they haven’t found a convincing argument for orthodoxy.
“Mad-trads”, on the other hand, are often angry and stubborn in their rhetoric, and reject any criticism of their exact worldview as heresy and Modernism.

They are? I’ve found them to be just as angry and stubborn in their rhetoric, if not more so, as you accuse so-called “Mad-trads” of being. I have found that many of those who subscribe to left-wing “heresies” (your word) often do so out of a feeling of intellectual superiority and brashness. They reject those who criticize their worldview as ones who they consider to be intellectually inferior, living in the stone age and completely out of touch with reality. They see a Church that cares little for women’s rights, who’s teachings are outdated…having been replaced in their worldview by modernism, science. I say these things from having the experience of speaking with co-workers who are Catholic and self described liberals who subscribe to all of the above and more.

There are some who propose things that would be suicidal of the Church’s acceptance

Uh-huh…and liberal Catholics propose things that would be far more suicidal of the Church’s acceptance. Like a church that would allow those who are sacramentally married to be able to partake in a second or a third or fourth marriage, with full reception of Holy Communion…no questions asked. A church that’s willing to embrace homosexual relations and so-called marriage as morally acceptable. They want a church that would see contraception as moral within marriage, and also prudent outside of marriage. They envision a church that would allow for at least some abortion to be necessary, to assure a mother’s freedom. A church that allows the individual the freedom to interpret the Scriptures, so that they can pick and choose those “truths” to suit their own particular beliefs, while completely ignoring the Church’s doctrine and doctrinal authority.

I would argue that modern liberalism, secularism as being a far greater threat to the RCC than any group of “Mad-trads” could ever be…and it’s not even close! By my way of thinking, their beliefs are incompatible with the Catholic Faith. In 1886, a Spanish Catholic priest and writer named Félix Sardà y Salvany wrote a book called Liberalism is a Sin. I’ve often wondered what he would think or write about this modern, more virulent form of liberalism we find ourselves surrounded by in 2015!

such as wanting a government that amounts to Fascism in Catholic clothing.

Fascist? What about this current administration? A government who doesn’t bat an eye in forcing the likes of the Little Sisters of the Poor, EWTN, and other Catholic ministries to provide abortion-inducing drugs and devices through their employee insurance plans against their will, all while under the threat of facing millions of dollars in IRS fines because they cannot comply with the government’s mandate.

Upset and confused by Catholic traditionalists?…Rather; unsettled and concerned about rampant liberalism infiltrating the RCC!

Peace, Mark

 

[Casilda]

---

You did post “Mad trads” – which was mentioned in one of the OP’s posts.

And when the valid concern of the problems/danger with “radical/toxic/mad” “Traddism” come up – It looks like a mode of “deflection” away from it – is to point in the other direction.

Personally, I have found the church today hostile to reverts, from my experience in the diocese I live in. They want to bury the past. The past was real. You can not bury it. Why am I suppose to not recount my experience when I first saw people holding hands during the Our Father. I have been accused of being badly catechized when I simply hold my hands together. That is what they taught us in the past. It was not wrong. I am the one who has been attacked at church and here at CAF. For remembering the past. I did not say it was wrong to hold hands, I was just taught different. No one wants to admit that. No one wants to talk about.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Now I have been staying away from Catholic websites for months now, but I am unable to completely banish these doubts and worries. It’s getting to the point where I assume the worst of traditionalists, that they’re all fascists whose pores emit pure malice at the mention of Jews or Protestants (okay, this is mostly me exaggerating to entertain myself). But what can I do about this? How can I be more charitable and have peace of mind?

Go Carthusian. You need to tune out the politics of the Church, and focus on your own personal spiritual journey. There are fringe elements and mad men in every sector of society, every religious affiliation, and every side of the political spectrum.

Turn off the web. De-plug from the media. Go back to basics. Daily Mass, Rosary, the Holy Bible. Regular confession. Forget about all the shenanigans on the web, the ranting and raving, the lunacy.

In the end, this infighting doesn’t matter a hill of beans. What matters most if your own personal salvation, and your relationship with the Creator and the Messiah, the Christ.

 

[Lormar]

Go Carthusian. You need to tune out the politics of the Church, and focus on your own personal spiritual journey. There are fringe elements and mad men in every sector of society, every religious affiliation, and every side of the political spectrum.

Turn off the web. De-plug from the media. Go back to basics. Daily Mass, Rosary, the Holy Bible. Regular confession. Forget about all the shenanigans on the web, the ranting and raving, the lunacy.

In the end, this infighting doesn’t matter a hill of beans. What matters most if your own personal salvation, and your relationship with the Creator and the Messiah, the Christ.

StGerardMajella, in the ten years I have been on the internet, your post is the most sane and intelligent one I have ever read. Thank you. :hug1:

 

[Dorothy]

Go Carthusian. You need to tune out the politics of the Church, and focus on your own personal spiritual journey. There are fringe elements and mad men in every sector of society, every religious affiliation, and every side of the political spectrum.

Turn off the web. De-plug from the media. Go back to basics. Daily Mass, Rosary, the Holy Bible. Regular confession. Forget about all the shenanigans on the web, the ranting and raving, the lunacy.

In the end, this infighting doesn’t matter a hill of beans. What matters most if your own personal salvation, and your relationship with the Creator and the Messiah, the Christ.

Excellent post…thank you!

 

[JackVk]

By my way of thinking, their beliefs are incompatible with the Catholic Faith. In 1886, a Spanish Catholic priest and writer named Félix Sardà y Salvany wrote a book called Liberalism is a Sin . I’ve often wondered what he would think or write about this modern, more virulent form of liberalism we find ourselves surrounded by in 2015!

Peace, Mark

Mark,

I have heard the “liberalism is a sin” statement. But I also know it refers to classical liberalism. If every facet of classical liberalism is sinful, then a lot of things we accept as normal must be violently truncated. For example:

Without classical liberalism, the only existing government is monarchy, and the law is entirely up to the king. There is no due process or right to a fair trial. If you get falsely charged with heresy on a day the king wants to see blood gush from a neck stump (which could be any given day, since he’s more than likely an inbred madman), well, sucks to be you. You are at the mercy of his arbitrary whims, which, IMHO, seems quite unlike the Kingship of Christ.

This also leaves out the possibility of civil disobedience against unjust laws. Under such a system, you are not allowed to even slightly criticize the king, since he is a representative of Christ’s Kingship (which is barely evident in kings like the Bourbons of France, who lived decadent lifestyles and traipsed off into pointless wars for “glory”. Needless to say, they’re the ones the SSPX is romantic for and wants to reinstate in place of the French republic).

There is also no capitalism that allows for growth or sustainability. Adam Smith’s ideas being booted out of the picture leaves you in a meager subsistence economy (try raising 15 kids on peanuts in this world; they will come to hate you, and you will most likely be seen as a child abuser).

Do you get my drift? There is a side of the Enlightenment that is compatible with Catholicism. To reject it all out-of-hand is, at best, foolishly imprudent, especially in the evangelization department.

 

[Ridgerunner]

To me, it almost sounds as if the OP is conflating SSPX with real schismatics and radicals like SSPV.

I first became acquainted with SSPX decades ago. My father was very uncomfortable with some of the excesses of the post-Vatican II Church, and rightly so, in my mind. He accepted the vernacular, not happily, but willingly. He wasn’t keen on turning the altars around, but he accepted it. He was less than impressed with the guitars and the ersatz folk singing and the burlap banners, but he lived with it. He was dismayed when orders of sisters “found new ministries” and left schools and hospitals in the lurch.

He had some friends who went SSPX; some very good people. My father was sorely tempted to join them, but didn’t because his reverence for the Pope and his authority, he felt, was not something he was free to depart from, even the slight degree to which the SSPX did, or seemed to.

I know a good number of SSPX people, and I find them to be kindly, earnest people, not crazies at all. One of my wife’s best friends is SSPX. Yes, the lady invites my wife to the SSPX Mass, but she isn’t strident about it or pushy or argumentive. She and my wife share many, many beliefs about morality and spirituality and prayer and humility.

And well they should share them because the SSPX lady was taught from exactly the same catechism as my wife was, believe 100% in Catholic doctrine, believe in the Eucharist and all the other sacraments, and revere the Pope as the Vicar of Christ on earth.

What the SSPX do NOT accept are relativistic mores, loose liturgical practices, dissident theologies, and politicized religion. My wife, and many a non-SSPX Catholic is the very same in that way.

Now, do I think SSPX folks are sometimes more insular than they ought to be? Yes. Do I think they are a bit narrow in their insistence on the Tridentine Mass? Yes, I do.

But then, the Tridentine Mass is, after all, just the Mass. It’s valid. The Popes have never said it isn’t, but have affirmed that it is. It’s not so hard, therefore, for me to accept a certain narrowness on the part of SSPX folks in certain ways. After all, they are, in my experience, far less narrow than some of the priests in the “regular” Church, who find a way to endorse totalitarian hard left views and never give any moral guidance beyond liberal political talking points.

I would like to see the SSPX get their own personal prelature like Opus Dei has. Their main thing is not to be under the dominion of local bishops. I can understand that. Would I have been comfortable under Abp Weakland? Would I have been comfortable if Cdl Mahoney told me to celebrate a 'rainbow Mass"?

Our previous bishop declared that he would never allow a TLM in the diocese, and he kept his word on that. People who had some measure of devotion to it had to go outside the diocese or attend a clandestine TLM one priest sometimes said. Or they had to go to SSPX, and some did.

So was that bishop right? I don’t think so. The first thing our new bishop did was set up some parishes in the diocese where the TLM would be said. They sky didn’t fall. There was no fascist takeover. No “rad-trad” firing squad emerged. Those folks (who are not SSPX) are quiet, kindly, unassuming people. I have been to those Masses some. I certainly do admire their choir…a lot. They actually sing polyphonic hymns as well as some Gregorian chant. It’s beautiful. The altar servers are precise and methodical and reverent (and boys). People know their Latin, or at least can read it. That congregation knows the Confiteor, the Our Father and the Credo in Latin by heart, and many of the responses.

I don’t know. It’s not so bad. In fact, it’s just a smidgen like visiting heaven for an hour.

Don’t misunderstand. In one of my two parishes, the convert daughter of a Baptist preacher plays the hammer dulcimer during Mass, and I love that too. And I love the old, mostly protestant, hymns I heard over and over again on the radio or the Ozark Jubilee when I was a kid, and sang in the strawberry patches with the Baptists. (I’ll admit, Marty Haugen, Carey Landry and the St. Louis Jesuits leave me cold)

I think that to know most SSPXers is to like them, even if one has some different thoughts from theirs.

 

[victrolatim]

It can be extremely hard, but sometimes one has to consciously avoid websites, conversations, etc. that get one involved with radical (either right or left) mindsets. As far as the mindsets of more radical “traditionalists”, sometimes you need to take into account what some of these people lived through. Some were no doubt psychologically damaged by liberal interpretations of Vatican II. I cantor at a parish with an EF Mass and some of the people there are adamant against things like the OF, Pope St. John Paul II, I’ve even heard one person denounce the Divine Mercy devotion. We have one fellow who appointed himself “Diocesan Coordinator of the Latin Mass” and he likes to tell everyone (including the celebrant) how “his Mass” is to be done. He has gotten into screaming matches with the priest and with us in the music ministry for not following his (often erroneous) instructions. It used to get my blood pressure going, now I just try to remember to pray for the poor fellow. He has been damaged spiritually, and in the end he is accountable only to God. Remember, you are there for your own spirituality and not to worry about anyone else’s or get into debates with them. Of course, I’m not saying that everyone who attends the EF is like this, it’s just that the ones who are loud get the most attention, just like any group. Sadly it keeps us from truly being ONE Catholic church. Remember to pray for those people.

 

[ProVobis]

As far as the mindsets of more radical “traditionalists”, sometimes you need to take into account what some of these people lived through. Some were no doubt psychologically damaged by liberal interpretations of Vatican II.

Indeed. It appears that JPII, BXVI, and now Francis I have been well-schooled in philosophy and psychology to recognize that there will be different mindsets formed by interpretations of not only Vatican II but many of the other Church documents. It also appears that there are a growing number of bishops who are beginning to understand the “rupture” that has been caused by too much deviation from tradition and traditional practices, among other things, and IMO this is a positive thing for the Church.

 

[Windmill]

I went through a trad phase. I went through a lot of the feelings you’re having now. Something Michael Davies said has really helped me. He was a traditionalist Catholic in every sense and his writings fueled much of the trad movement. In a talk he was giving on the indefectibility of the Church he brought up some of the complex theological issues that lay Catholics often get entangled in (eg. whether or not a pope could lose his office via a latae sententia excommunication for heresy). And he said, “Many of these things are irrelevant to us. We should focus more on holding true to Catholic dogma, praying our devotions, receiving the sacraments, and getting our souls to Heaven.” Its not to say that complex theological issues are unimportant, but oftentimes they distract us from our mission in life: to get to Heaven.

People can also get into a Crusader mentality whereby they believe that they are self-appointed soldiers for orthodoxy against a wrecked Church. Their zeal for finer doctrinal concepts and intricate liturgies may appear as pious, but it can often become a substitute for spirituality. IOW, the fight becomes the central focus of their spirituality, and they can suffer irreparable damage because of it.

There are reasons for having a hierarchy. One of them is to lead the Church. As laymen, our job is not to be professional Catholics. We are called to go out into the world and sanctify it. If the shepherds of the flock have issues that need to be worked through, that’s their job for which they will be held accountable before God. My job is not to do their job for them. God will work his will through his appointed leaders on His time.

 

[commenter]

Indeed. It appears that JPII, BXVI, and now Francis I have been well-schooled in philosophy and psychology to recognize that there will be different mindsets formed by interpretations of not only Vatican II but many of the other Church documents. It also appears that there are a growing number of bishops who are beginning to understand the “rupture” that has been caused by too much deviation from tradition and traditional practices, among other things, and IMO this is a positive thing for the Church.

My own concern is not that Vatican II had any rupture with the past, but that it is now fading into the past itself. The world has changed as much since the 1960s to 2015 as it did from Vatican I to Vatican II; maybe as much as it did since the Council of Trent.

I don’t disagree with anything in the Vatican II documents. But they were written when the internet, gay marriage, legal abortion, social media, Islamic state terrorism, and a whole host of good and bad things were unimaginable. They never foresaw the massive defiance of Catholic Tradition and the Magisterium that took place almost right afterwards, especially by religious orders, particularly women. They also never foresaw the much smaller groups of “traditionalists” who defy the Magisterium, essentially practicing Private Interpretation of Tradition.

Thus, Pope Francis has to struggle to keep adapting the Church, being faithful to Tradition but in 2015. Earlier popes did that too. People tend to forget St. Pope Pius X also lived in changing times. He exhorted the laity to take on new roles through Catholic Action, but always in unity with their bishops and the Holy See.

As time goes on, I increasingly find much to admire in individual traditionalists, but less and less to admire in traditionalist groups. Some formally broke with the Magisterium, some claim to be still “in” the Church but sit in the critic’s chair. They don’t bring anyone into the Catholic Faith, they criticize Catholic Church leaders, and no one else. I try to encourage individual traditionalists to move away from the organizations and websites, but to bring their knowledge and spirituality more fully into the Church. God knows we need them!

 

[jmjZelie]

I suppose I am a traditionalist Catholic. I am also a convert. I just wanted to chime in to say that we are not all crazy, rabid sorts of folks who tear each other down. I have, however, witnessed that sort of behavior from some traditionalists and some non-traditionalists. I tend to stay out of it. I listen to both sides and then come to my own conclusions. Some people, like my family, have become traditionalist because we recognize that is how God wants to help us to grow in holiness and to help us be whole and sane in this crazy world. Not because of desiring to be better than or more than other Catholics. I am sorry you have been troubled. I don’t have any answers for you. Just another perspective so hopefully you know that not all traditionalists are the same.

 

[Denise1957]

It can be extremely hard, but sometimes one has to consciously avoid websites, conversations, etc. that get one involved with radical (either right or left) mindsets. As far as the mindsets of more radical “traditionalists”, sometimes you need to take into account what some of these people lived through. Some were no doubt psychologically damaged by liberal interpretations of Vatican II. I cantor at a parish with an EF Mass and some of the people there are adamant against things like the OF, Pope St. John Paul II, I’ve even heard one person denounce the Divine Mercy devotion. We have one fellow who appointed himself “Diocesan Coordinator of the Latin Mass” and he likes to tell everyone (including the celebrant) how “his Mass” is to be done. He has gotten into screaming matches with the priest and with us in the music ministry for not following his (often erroneous) instructions. It used to get my blood pressure going, now I just try to remember to pray for the poor fellow. He has been damaged spiritually, and in the end he is accountable only to God. Remember, you are there for your own spirituality and not to worry about anyone else’s or get into debates with them. Of course, I’m not saying that everyone who attends the EF is like this, it’s just that the ones who are loud get the most attention, just like any group. Sadly it keeps us from truly being ONE Catholic church. Remember to pray for those people.

Very astute observations. Bless you for being willing to not get upset at the behavior of the fellow who has gotten into screaming matches with the priest. There are indeed those who have been damaged. IMO, it’s more about the Crisis, and the the difficulty in knowing how to deal with it when one admits to themselves that a Crisis exists. How does one really deal with all of the changes in the Church since the Council? We’re all human, and some are going to deal with the Crisis in ways that are troubling, and in some cases VERY troubling. But It’s not necessarily all their fault. None of us are responsible for the Crisis, and we deal with it the best we can.

There are those who don’t believe that a Crisis exists - which seems unfortunate - but it’s the easier path to take, which is understandable too. And more than a few believe that the changes in the Church since the Council are a really good thing.

We’re all just trying to muddle through, and some of us aren’t very calm about it, that’s for sure. It’s good to have sympathy and understanding for those who have kind of gone off the deep end in their views (the so-called “Rad-Trads”).

 

[Landon_Caeli]

(Please don’t report/delete this. I’m not trying to start anything, I am asking a serious question).

It seems that certain traditionalist groups have left me feeling confused and ambivalent about my faith. One thing that traditionalists doggedly talk about it how religious liberty and, by extension, all forms of classical liberalism, are heretical and modernist, since they are an affront to the social Kingship of Christ.

Now, I’ve pored over and read reconciliations between Vatican II documents and the works of Pope’s Pius IX and X, Leo XIII, among others. I understand the difference in what they are talking about, respectively. The pre-V2 crowd is condemning religious indifferentism, while On Human Dignity is speaking about freedom from coercion. Error does not have rights, but those in error do.

Still, the traditionalist rhetoric often leaves me unsettled. It makes me question my own orthodoxy, and whether the average Catholic parish is truly faithful. It’s comparable to gaslighting.

What’s more, it has caused me to distrust both regular, faithful Catholics and self-proclaimed Traditionalists. The former because they may be hoodwinked by the “Spirit of Vatican II”, and the latter because they give me the impression that I’m a heretic unless I advocate a Catholic police state that beats up nonbelievers and heretics.

There was also a case of an SSPX school in Kansas that would play in a basketball game because one referee was a woman, and that “women should not have authority over men”.

Now I have been staying away from Catholic websites for months now, but I am unable to completely banish these doubts and worries. It’s getting to the point where I assume the worst of traditionalists, that they’re all fascists whose pores emit pure malice at the mention of Jews or Protestants (okay, this is mostly me exaggerating to entertain myself). But what can I do about this? How can I be more charitable and have peace of mind?

I could be wrong, but it seems like a dilemma between the two greatest commandments and to what degree they should be applied. Some Catholics focus heavily on loving God whith all their might, while others make more room for loving their neighbors as themselves. But realistically, is there really only one exactly perfect ratio that all Catholics can percieve unanimously? I doubt it. Not when there exists a learning process in each of our personal faith processes. I know mine has evolved. My understanding continues to change. The Church knows this and does her best to accomodate.

 

[Landon_Caeli]

Is it even possible that there is an exact and perfect ratio? If so, is it possible for the Church as a whole to realize it all at once?

 

[edwest2]

My fellow Catholics, please stop the politics. They only divide us. It seems like the word Traditionalist is just one notch below Satan on the Hit List. Please stop.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. Politics have no place in the Church building. It is a House of Prayer. Of worship. Of the celebration of the Mass.

Don’t blame the internet. Anybody can and does use it for whatever end they please.

There are no “Traditionalists ONLY” groups that I know of and if there were, I would show no interest. God - not politics - is the focus and being with Him the goal.

The world didn’t change after Vatican II. Only men began the long, well-coordinated, current and ongoing attack on the Church. In the 5 year plan from 1968 to 1973, the groundwork was laid for everything they wanted. Everything. I was there and as time passed, all I got was more and more confirmation that dissidents inside and outside the Church were attacking it on many levels. And here we are. As predicted by Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae - 1968.

That, not Vatican II, became the hated enemy. Vatican II became the excuse, the scapegoat - nothing more. Though that common misconception that it caused anything is still being spread.

Ed

 

[Landon_Caeli]

My fellow Catholics, please stop the politics. They only divide us. It seems like the word Traditionalist is just one notch below Satan on the Hit List. Please stop.

A house divided against itself cannot stand. Politics have no place in the Church building. It is a House of Prayer. Of worship. Of the celebration of the Mass.

Don’t blame the internet. Anybody can and does use it for whatever end they please.

There are no “Traditionalists ONLY” groups that I know of and if there were, I would show no interest. God - not politics - is the focus and being with Him the goal.

The world didn’t change after Vatican II. Only men began the long, well-coordinated, current and ongoing attack on the Church. In the 5 year plan from 1968 to 1973, the groundwork was laid for everything they wanted. Everything. I was there and as time passed, all I got was more and more confirmation that dissidents inside and outside the Church were attacking it on many levels. And here we are. As predicted by Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae - 1968.

That, not Vatican II, became the hated enemy. Vatican II became the excuse, the scapegoat - nothing more. Though that common misconception that it caused anything is still being spread.

Ed

But the Law of God has not been compromised though. With the priest facing a different direction, the Eucharistic ministers, etc., is merely an attempt to place more focus on people, not to say it distracts our focus from God, right? Because God wants both?

Because the two greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself.

But if I am wrong in my thinking, I hope it’s safe for some of the older Catholics here to teach what they were taught or what they have learned from witnessing it all first hand. I have no opinion either way -I’m just speaking off the cuff.