Upset with one of my dh's brother Knights

[nana3]

I am so upset with one of my dh’s brother Knights of Columbus. My husband is Faithful Navigator and as so he has decided to carry on the essay contest open to 8th graders that was started last year. It was and is open only to Catholic school students. Well, I mentioned to dh, since we homeschool our dd, if homeschooled 8th graders could participate. He didnt’ see any reason why not, but had to check with the man who ran the essay contest. The man who ran it was all for it and said their was no problem. Well, today one of his brother Knights who was on vacation during all this discussion said that he is not open to the homeschoolers doing the essay. He said that they will cheat and the parents will help them write it and it won’t be their own words. I was offended by this. We have a good group and they would not cheat or lie about it. My dh emailed him back and he emailed back again saying that he doesn’t approve and the only way he would approve is if the homeschooled kids were in a room supervised by one of the brother Knights. The man who ran it last year said he doesn’t understand why this man is so against it for the school kids do not do the essay at school, but at home. The same can go for them and the parents could help them out too.

My husband is not looking forward to debating this with this man who is a friend. This man is a teacher and when we asked him to evaluate our dd, he would not. He is against homeschooling. Please pray that the homeschool kids will be allowed to participate. I hope one of them wins and wins on his or her own.

Would you be offended?

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

**Sounds like this man is taking a family’s decision to homeschool as a direct insult to his teaching abilities. Until he becomes more open-minded I don’t think there is a lot you can do unfortunately. Even if a homeschooled child won he would always assume it was because they cheated.

If it would be practical, why not have your husband suggest that ALL participants in the contest be supervised? That way if a homeschooled kid did win he would have to acknowledge that he just might be wrong…
**

 

[jkatpc]

I’da thunk the legitimate argument against a homeschooler’s participation is that it is only open to Catholic school students …

In any case, everything that involves distribution of money in the Knights (whether it be in a council or an assembly) are governed by rules. No one person has the say. Read the bylaws. Maybe there is an exception for homeschooled students where Catholic religion classes are taught. If the rules are are ambiguous enough, they might be able to put it up to a vote. If the contest is sponsored above the assembly level, then your husband will have to get guidance from his marshall or master.

Be prepared, though, because other excluded groups (parents of public school students) will want the same exception made.

 

[puzzleannie]

can’t understand why those involved don’t simply consult the rules of the contest, and ask the person in charge of administering the contest, rather than argue amongst themselves.

 

[Catholic90]

Well, you stated the following:

It was and is open only to Catholic school students.

If your child is not a Catholic school student, according to the rules, she should not be allowed to participate.

Check the rules again, and then I think you have to abide by them.

Otherwise, all sorts of other groups will ask for exceptions, too.

 

[tiggeriffic]

As a Catholic School teacher, my opposition is not that your daughter may cheat, it is only that she is not a Catholic School child. If the exception is made for her, then why not for the family that can not afford Catholic School? If it is only open to Catholic School students then keep it that way.

 

[catharina]

nana3, I would not be offended.
It’s no big deal. Let it go.

 

[allhers]

As a Catholic School teacher, my opposition is not that your daughter may cheat, it is only that she is not a Catholic School child. If the exception is made for her, then why not for the family that can not afford Catholic School? If it is only open to Catholic School students then keep it that way.

But they are Catholic schooled children. Just because they don’t go to the local Catholic School building itself, doesn’t mean that they aren’t schooled as children who are Catholic.

They also aren’t costing the Parish any money to be spent on them as the parents undertake that.(electricity, etc…) I know that parents pay for their childs education to Catholic Schools. I think anyone who is able to do their own Schooling is to be admired, as they are with their children a lot more and they make sure that their chld really does learn the Truth of our faith. (I personally like Catholic Schools too.)

It has also been my life experience that when someone says something accusatory like …“they will cheat”, that often the person is speaking of what they themselves would do under the same circumstances and not what others might or might not do.
Statements like that always make me wonder about the one making them.

Plus the OP gave an excellent example that even the children that go to a Catholic School building would be doing their projects, etc…at home. So, if he’s worried about cheating, why not in their case? (just a flimsy excuse is what it is.)

Usually those kinds of things are open to children who attend Religious Education, or whatever your Parish calls it, P.R.E., CCD, etc…only, and who go to a public schools. So why shouldn’t it include Home Schooled Catholic children too?

The Knight in question sounds like he is making things up, go to the rules.(and if need be, have the rules changed, who makes them anyway?)

 

[nana3]

Let me clarify some things. First, no exception is made for our dd. She is in 4th grade. The rules last years were for Catholic Schools only, but the man who started this and runs this okayed the homeschoolers as long as they are Catholic. His big thing is they have to be Catholic and not another religion or a public school. He does not have a problem with the homeschooler. Only one man does and they are going to put it to a vote if this man insist. The man, the teacher, who is opposed to it doesn’t know that Catholic School students take the essay at home and do it there and not at school, so they too are unsupervised. His biggest problem is that homeschool kids will have their parents do the work and it won’t be the parents. He doesn’t trust the homeschool parents to allow the kids to do it on their own. By the way, those who know about the Knights, the man who is opposed to it is a trustee. That is why my husband tried to get a hold of him when he had to make this decision, but so far all the other brother knights say that the choice to have a essay contest in the first place and the topic of it is up to my husband. He decided to continue to do this also this year. First place winner gets $100.00 and second place winner gets $50.00.

I agree that if this trustee wants the homeschool supervised, than so should the Catholic school students. This is only open to those who want to participate whether homeschooled or Catholic School students. No one is obligated unless the school makes it mandatory, which none has so far. Also, when the judges read the essays, the students are not allowed to put their school on it. So the Knights will not know whether it was a homeschool student or not until the kid is awarded the money.

I will allow my husband, because I am not a Knight, to bring all this to a debate at their next club meeting. He nor the man who runs the contest doesn’t understand the fuss.

 

[nana3]

This is not above the level of their own assembly. Not all counsels do this contest. Some do basketball throws and other things.

 

[tee_eff_em]

If this is the Essay Contest provided by the Supreme Council on “The Responsibility of the Catholic Citizen in a Free Society”, then (offensive and/or ill-considered though the process may have been) the gentleman is correct. and Catholic high schools. (Unless there is some kind of fiction I do not know about maintained between the local homeschoolers and the Catholic school, whereby homeschool students are graduated through the Catholic school system? I confess to not know much about homeschooling in general, but I understand situations vary from place to place).

My own council generally relaxes this rule to open the contest to both Catholic school students and CCD students, but that is a local decision. No question of homeschooling has ever been brought to us.

Aside: More frustrating is the question we get every year from one of our schools, which enrolls a high proportion of non-Catholic students: *“Can so-and-so write on the responsibility of a *Baptist/Episcopalian/whathaveyou *in a free society?” *The answer is always a resounding No – If you are enrolled in a Catholic school, we do not expect you to be exempt from catechism classes and you ought to be able to answer this question, regardless your particular beliefs.
And a couple of years ago I awarded an *Honorable Mention *to a non-Catholic student who came *extremely *close to winning outright. It can be done.
(Not that students do not still try to change the topic question – Guess what? Their essays score quite low – Imagine that! :whacky: )

SK tee,
DD PA104
PGK #3530

 

[tiggeriffic]

But they are Catholic schooled children. Just because they don’t go to the local Catholic School building itself, doesn’t mean that they aren’t schooled as children who are Catholic.

But the contest is specifically for Catholic School students. Not home school students. I am in no way criticizing home schooled children - just this contest is for Catholic School students. Many parents who teach Catholic values and morals at home to their public school children can say that their children are “schooled as children who are Catholic”

Usually those kinds of things are open to children who attend Religious Education, or whatever your Parish calls it, P.R.E., CCD, etc…only, and who go to a public schools. So why shouldn’t it include Home Schooled Catholic children too?

But in this case the OP simply said it was a contest open to Catholic School students. She made no mention of children in the parish Christian Formation program.

To me it sounds simple - its open to Catholic School students. Thats the rule. The “excuse” the fellow Knight used is stupid and not even worth entertaining. But the contest is for Catholic School students - not home schooled.

 

[duskyjewel]

I used to be a home schooler, and I completely support parents in their choice to home school.

That said, home schoolers need to stop trying to horn in on every contest and calling it discrimination when they are not allowed in. If the rules state that the contest is for those enrolled in or graduating from Catholic schools, then those are the people eligible to enter. End of story.

This is like that contest Subway tried to have and a home schooling family ended up protesting and screaming discrimination because they weren’t allowed to enter. The people running the contest have the right to determine who is eligible and who is not.

When we choose to home school, we choose to give up some of the things that come with insititutional schools. Some of them are drawbacks and some are benefits. But we choose to give them up when pursuing a different path.

So stop it already. You just make home schoolers look bad when you try to get rules changed to favor you. This might be why the guy thinks home schoolers will cheat… they don’t seem to like rules when they don’t go the way they want.

That said, the specific guy in question does seem to be a prejudiced jerk, and I would report his comments to his chain of “command” or whatever exists. He should not be allowed to go around bashing entire groups of people in his official capacity as a Knight. Never mind that his assumption is just plain wrong. If home schoolers did well by cheating, they would all collapse in college. They don’t, so they must actually be learning.

 

[allhers]

If this is the Essay Contest provided by the Supreme Council on “The Responsibility of the Catholic Citizen in a Free Society”, then (offensive and/or ill-considered though the process may have been) the gentleman is correct. [The Knights of Columbus Essay Contest is** open to students

graduating from Catholic elementary schools

and Catholic high schools**](http://www.kofc.org/eb/en/leadershi...service/youth/essay_contest/action_steps.html). (Unless there is some kind of fiction I do not know about maintained between the local homeschoolers and the Catholic school, whereby homeschool students are graduated through the Catholic school system? I confess to not know much about homeschooling in general, but I understand situations vary from place to place).

My own council generally relaxes this rule to open the contest to both Catholic school students and CCD students, but that is a local decision. No question of homeschooling has ever been brought to us.

Aside: More frustrating is the question we get every year from one of our schools, which enrolls a high proportion of non-Catholic students: *“Can so-and-so write on the responsibility of a *Baptist/Episcopalian/whathaveyou *in a free society?” *The answer is always a resounding No – If you are enrolled in a Catholic school, we do not expect you to be exempt from catechism classes and you ought to be able to answer this question, regardless your particular beliefs.
And a couple of years ago I awarded an *Honorable Mention *to a non-Catholic student who came *extremely *close to winning outright. It can be done.
(Not that students do not still try to change the topic question – Guess what? Their essays score quite low – Imagine that! :whacky: )

SK tee,
DD PA104
PGK #3530

So, I am just asking, if they can relax the rules to include children who go to Public Schools, and therefore are not going to graduate from a Catholic School, but who do go to C.C.D., etc…, wouldn’t it be considerate to open it also to those who are Catholic and home schooled?

 

[nana3]

If this is the Essay Contest provided by the Supreme Council on “The Responsibility of the Catholic Citizen in a Free Society”, then (offensive and/or ill-considered though the process may have been) the gentleman is correct. and Catholic high schools. (Unless there is some kind of fiction I do not know about maintained between the local homeschoolers and the Catholic school, whereby homeschool students are graduated through the Catholic school system? I confess to not know much about homeschooling in general, but I understand situations vary from place to place).

My own council generally relaxes this rule to open the contest to both Catholic school students and CCD students, but that is a local decision. No question of homeschooling has ever been brought to us.

Aside: More frustrating is the question we get every year from one of our schools, which enrolls a high proportion of non-Catholic students: *“Can so-and-so write on the responsibility of a *Baptist/Episcopalian/whathaveyou *in a free society?” *The answer is always a resounding No – If you are enrolled in a Catholic school, we do not expect you to be exempt from catechism classes and you ought to be able to answer this question, regardless your particular beliefs.
And a couple of years ago I awarded an *Honorable Mention *to a non-Catholic student who came *extremely *close to winning outright. It can be done.
(Not that students do not still try to change the topic question – Guess what? Their essays score quite low – Imagine that! :whacky: )

SK tee,
DD PA104
PGK #3530

SK Tee,
No this is not the same contest. This is done at the assembly level and at the local 4th degree. It is not done all over the nation with all students involved. As Faithful Navigator this year, my dh, had the responsibility to pick the topic and this is not the topic. This again is for 8th grade students only and not high school or any other grade. So the contest you mention above is different.

 

[nana3]

But the contest is specifically for Catholic School students. Not home school students. I am in no way criticizing home schooled children - just this contest is for Catholic School students. Many parents who teach Catholic values and morals at home to their public school children can say that their children are “schooled as children who are Catholic”

But in this case the OP simply said it was a contest open to Catholic School students. She made no mention of children in the parish Christian Formation program.

To me it sounds simple - its open to Catholic School students. Thats the rule. The “excuse” the fellow Knight used is stupid and not even worth entertaining. But the contest is for Catholic School students - not home schooled.

The only reason last year the contest was open only to Catholic School students is because it was at one time open to CCD students only and that did not go well. The man who started the program here locally didn’t even know what homeschool was. His biggest concern is that they had to be Catholic. He was so excited to include the home schooled kids. He was the one to make the rule “Catholic school 8th graders only” is because he did not want non-Catholic or public schools involved. He was unaware of home schooled kids and we had to explain it to him. There are many who do not know about homeschooling. He was one of them. He okayed my husband to sign his signature to all the letters that went out to the local Catholic school Principals and he had one letter made out for the local homeschool group. Everything has already been done.

So far no 8th grade HS kids have shown any interest, but than school has not started yet.

 

[nana3]

Let me add something else. Some here in his response and I am assuming he is a Knight mentioned that my dh should go to his master. Thanks for that advice. He did do that and the master has no problem including homeschooled children, but said that dh should contact the local Youth activities director for his area. My husband did that and the youth activities director said that he doesn’t understand the trustee’s concern and that he approves the contest being open to homeschooled children in the 8th grade. To calm everyone though he said he will be getting hold of the State Deputy of his assembly or area. He did say that he sees no problem with it. He told my dh at the next council meeting to mention to the trustee that he has used the proper channels and they do not have a problem with adding homeschool kids as long as they are Catholic. He too mentioned the rational that the kids will not be doing this essay in school but at home, so there is no teacher watching the Catholic school students either.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

That said, home schoolers need to stop trying to horn in on every contest and calling it discrimination when they are not allowed in. If the rules state that the contest is for those enrolled in or graduating from Catholic schools, then those are the people eligible to enter. End of story.

Not end of story… her husband is obviously involved with this contest and has some say as to who does what. Her request doesn’t sound unreasonable especially considering that all other members seem to be in favor of including homeschooled kids. Nana3 mentions that many of them did not even know about homeschooling so how could they think to include them without someone first suggesting it?

This is like that contest Subway tried to have and a home schooling family ended up protesting and screaming discrimination because they weren’t allowed to enter. The people running the contest have the right to determine who is eligible and who is not.

And her husband is one of those people. This is not some random contest. This is not something with a lot of preset rules etc. This is only the second year and they would like to have it grow and meet the parish’s needs… that may or may not include opening it to homeschool students.

When we choose to home school, we choose to give up some of the things that come with insititutional schools. Some of them are drawbacks and some are benefits. But we choose to give them up when pursuing a different path.

I could see your point if nana3 was trying to enter her child in a contest RUN BY A SCHOOL. She is not. This is a parish activity. And since her husband is involved that gives her even more reason to ask for the inclusion of homeschooled children.

So stop it already. You just make home schoolers look bad when you try to get rules changed to favor you. This might be why the guy thinks home schoolers will cheat… they don’t seem to like rules when they don’t go the way they want.
**
That was rude and uncalled for:tsktsk:** Nana3 doesn’t deserve that type of venom for this thread.

Just to add something else… why can’t they make it so the contest is open to the children of all registered parishoners? Then all the kids would be Catholic and there wouldn’t be a mess of which school (or non-school) they attend. Since this is a parish activity then it seems like all members of the parish should be eligible:shrug:

 

[nana3]

Just to add something else… why can’t they make it so the contest is open to the children of all registered parishoners? Then all the kids would be Catholic and there wouldn’t be a mess of which school (or non-school) they attend. Since this is a parish activity then it seems like all members of the parish should be eligible:shrug:

It was open to the children of the parish, the CCD program, at first, but something happened and I don’t know what. Whatever happened the man in charge will not open this to CCD children or all the children of the parish. This is the second year open to Catholic school only, but this program existed before by the man who started it and it was just CCD students than. I don’t know how long ago though.

This contest also includes many parishes for it covers all the Catholic schools in the Diocese and now the local homeschool group, until they change that. If they do, we homeschoolers are not going to make a big deal about it. It is the local Knight’s contest and they can choose who to allow in or out.

 

[kage_ar]

So, if a Baptist kid attends the Catholic School, she can win the scholarship - but, the Catholic kid who goes to public school or is homeshooled cannot? Sounds messed up.