Urgent: why does the afterlife matter? Why do we care?

[MonteRCMS]

You don’t get to Heaven by loving your neighbor. [There are ten commandments of God and a lot of commandments of the Church.]

You get to Heaven by the Grace of God … and Jesus is THE Judge.

Jesus decides.

He is the Judge.

[And be nice to His Mother.]

Me talking: I look forward to meeting my friends at the Purgatory Bar & Grille. While we work out the details of our salvation.

 

[inocente]

What I mean is that the descriptions of heaven and hell all appeal to selfishness. They all talk of heaven as feasts and endless joy, etc. and hell as lakes of fire. They are entirely about the self, entirely about personal reward.

Aquinas thinks the saints can intervene on earth to help us, but if they can then it’s the exception not the norm. Generally the saints are described as entirely wrapped up in their own joy and pleasure.

But being wrapped up in our self is the opposite of the mind of Christ. The King judges us by our selflessness. The unrighteous went through life only acting if they selfishly thought the King would notice, but he says:

'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

Whereas the righteous as those who help others without any thought of reward or personal gain. They 're even surprised that He rewards them:

'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?' (Matt 25)

But it seems from the descriptions that once they get to heaven, they forget the hungry and thirsty and are preoccupied, for all eternity, with their own joy.

 

[inocente]

inocente:

What’s the point? What’s the point of existing forever when you’re just repeating ad infinitum the same experience you already had on the first day?

An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory

Excerpt :

I am going to try to make you understand, as far as you can upon earth, what Heaven is like. There are ever new feasts which succeed each other without interruption. There is happiness, always new and such, it would seem, as has never been enjoyed. It is a torrent of joy which flows unceasingly over the elect. Heaven is above all and beyond all — GOD: God loved, God relished, God delighted in; in one word, it is to be satisfied with God without ever being satisfied!

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=6253

Yon “ever new feasts which succeed each other without interruption” sounds not just exhausting but terminally decadent. I guess one person’s heaven is other’s hell.

 

[Techno2000]

on “ever new feasts which succeed each other without interruption” sounds not just exhausting but terminally decadent. I guess one person’s heaven is other’s hell.

You are right, people in Hell wouldn’t be happy in Heaven.They would say that they never asked Jesus to die for them.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

Almost nobody goes to heaven:

At least superficially, to me, eternal boredom, feasting, divinely induced eternal novelty (i.e. every new experience is better than the last), hedonism, and love of God would seem to be the least of our problems.

 

[HarryStotle]

Aquinas thinks the saints can intervene on earth to help us, but if they can then it’s the exception not the norm. Generally the saints are described as entirely wrapped up in their own joy and pleasure.

Well, no, the saints are described as being entirely wrapped up in God who is their entire joy and pleasure. If being entirely one with God entails a complete egoism and disregard for humanity, then by implication you are claiming God has complete disregard for humanity. Jesus stands and hangs on a cross to refute that implication.

 

[HarryStotle]

What I mean is that the descriptions of heaven and hell all appeal to selfishness.

Let’s be clear about what selfishness entails. Selfishness is an UNDUE regard for self inextricably divorced from any proper concept of justice. The opposite of selfishness, unselfishness, does NOT mean a complete disregard or hatred for oneself, as would seem to be implied by your concept of selfishness. Nor is it an abandonment of all prudential self-interest.

Justice is founded on the logical principle of treating relevantly like things alike. Which means all human beings, INCLUDING ourselves, have equal moral worth. On a practical level, however, each of us has been given moral responsibility for our own being and the welfare of those proximal to us - family, friends, community, etc. It would not be a morally upright thing to do to abandon our own interests and those for whom we have responsibility to take up the welfare of some hypothetical entity like “humanity” or “the poor” or some other group far away, as if exchanging the well-being of one group for the well-being of another group somewhere else magically turns us into unselfish ethical giants.

Each of us bears moral responsibility for the consequences of our choices and actions in the situation into which we have been placed by God’s providence. That includes those of us who have completely abdicated that moral responsibility may, due to our own choices and actions, as determined by God’s perfect justice and goodness, eventually find ourselves in hell.

 

[petra22]

No one knows how God judges people after death, the Church tries very hard to judge and control the living because supposedly a theology degree or some other degree means that they morally or spiritually better able to guide someone elses life. An I mean i guess one could argue that well hey you go to a doctor to fix your medical problems because they are trained to do so, and to get advise from them on how to stay healthy, but then everyone is baffled when the healthy skinny person dies from a heart attack and the over weight unhealthy person lives to be in his or her late 80s or 90s.

But the difference is that Jesus founded his church so you and I would have a rock to lean on. Why is it so hard to believe what he said?

 

[inocente]

You are right, people in Hell wouldn’t be happy in Heaven.They would say that they never asked Jesus to die for them.

I’d hope nobody asks Jesus to die for them.

Almost nobody goes to heaven:

The Fewness of the Saved

At least superficially, to me, eternal boredom, feasting, divinely induced eternal novelty (i.e. every new experience is better than the last), hedonism, and love of God would seem to be the least of our problems.

Very cheery . I guess a summary of the thread so far is not only is there no agreement on where heaven is, or what it’s like, no one can say how many, if any, get to go there. So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life and que será será, what will be will be.

 

[HarryStotle]

Very cheery . I guess a summary of the thread so far is not only is there no agreement on where heaven is, or what it’s like, no one can say how many, if any, get to go there. So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life and que será será, what will be will be.

Just to be clear.

You are claiming that because there is “no agreement” it is “best to ignore the whole concept.”

Is that the standard you use for any intellectual or scientific pursuit? Not worth pursuing if everyone cannot agree?

I would suppose that to be a principle reason FOR pursuing “the whole concept,” I.e. to find out the truth on the matter precisely because it is not so well understood.

When you say, “…best to ignore the whole concept…” are you meaning best that everyone does or best that you do?

 

[petra22]

Yes, please don’t ignore the message because people cannot agree. Many are being pulled and blinded by the world. Please OP, say your prayers for understanding and the Lord of Mercy will answer your prayers…

 

[steve-b]

A deep friend recently asked me eternal life matters and why heaven matters. I realized I had never thought about it aside from wanting to go to heaven and not hell, and it’s just a deep question. So…what do you think the answer is? Why don’t we just let things be? How are we so sure, aside from Scripture, that the afterlife exists and we want to be on the right side of it?

We wouldn’t know of heaven or hell unless we were told of them. And the one who told us of them Jesus, has the evidence behind His words

 

[kesa82]

A deep friend recently asked me eternal life matters and why heaven matters.

And for many decades I have been replying in return , How do " good " ," bad" , " right" or "wrong " even have any coherent meaning in the present moment, when , in the next moment , I cease to be , and consequently do not think in such ways, as I do not think at all ?

The only reply I have ever gotten , translated into simple English is ; They have meaning because …because…because. "

And the old reliable ad hominem , " You are thinking self-centeredly and selfishly . " Which is funny , how could I be selfish when I don’t exist ?

Why don’t we just let things be?

Why don’t we just let things be …what ? The question seems to suggest an alternative . But what alternative ?

Let me guess …

I’d hope nobody asks Jesus to die for them.

People ask police to die for them, though frankly it seems to me they primarily die for a law, whether in the U.S. , Sweden , or North Korea , a law written primarily for the ruling class and the regime that happens to be in power at the moment.

People ask soldiers to die for them , though in many wars , non-combatants, like infants, too , though frankly I’m not so sure any current nation state is of any more transcendent importance than the Landgraviate of Hesse- Kassel , the Principality of Anhalt - Zerbst , or the Hittite Empire

In comparison to these probably futile and vain slaughters ? To ask Jesus to die for me seems rather a modest and restrained demand.

. So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life

So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life in North Korea .

If what I often read about millionaires in Hollywood is even half true ,

Then , " live life in the moment " doesn’t even work very well for the rich , the beautiful , and the popular , who live in Disneyland .

 

[inocente]

Yes, please don’t ignore the message because people cannot agree. Many are being pulled and blinded by the world. Please OP, say your prayers for understanding and the Lord of Mercy will answer your prayers…

There are lots of religions, with all kinds of take. Many have doctrines of reincarnation, others of paradise or happy hunting grounds. “Heaven, the heavens, seven heavens, pure lands, Tian, Jannah, Valhalla, or the Summerland, is a common religious, cosmological, or transcendent place where beings such as gods, angels, jinn, saints, or venerated ancestors are said to originate, be enthroned, or live.” - Afterlife - Wikipedia

So true, there’s nothing like agreement. And surprisingly, as this thread shows, it’s hard to find any agreement within a religion, let alone between religions.

People ask police to die for them

I’ve a friend who is a policeman. I imagine he would arrest anyone who asked him to die. Surely it’s immoral to encourage anyone to die? (and a criminal offense in some jurisdictions).

To ask Jesus to die for me seems rather a modest and restrained demand.

Jesus already died for you once, isn’t that enough? Can’t see how asking someone to die can ever be “a modest and restrained demand”.

inocente:

. So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life

So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life in North Korea .

Here’s what I wrote: “So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life and que será será, what will be will be.”

 

[steve-b]

People ask police to die for them, though frankly it seems to me they primarily die for a law, whether in the U.S. , Sweden , or North Korea , a law written primarily for the ruling class and the regime that happens to be in power at the moment.

People ask soldiers to die for them , though in many wars , non-combatants, like infants, too , though frankly I’m not so sure any current nation state is of any more transcendent importance than the Landgraviate of Hesse- Kassel , the Principality of Anhalt - Zerbst , or the Hittite Empire

In comparison to these probably futile and vain slaughters ? To ask Jesus to die for me seems rather a modest and restrained demand.

So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life in North Korea .

If what I often read about millionaires in Hollywood is even half true ,

Then , " live life in the moment " doesn’t even work very well for the rich , the beautiful , and the popular , who live in Disneyland .

With an old friend of mine, who as an atheist, would always ask me God questions. And it always ended up the same way. Nowhere.

So my last response to him was, using the Paschal wager argument, (I paraphrased)

I said to him,

if you’re right and I’m wrong then no harm no foul. We’re just dead. No consequences either way for any good we did or bad we did. No winner no loser, it’s just death. Then I said, if I’m right and you’re wrong, you’re screwed for eternity. No getting out of it.

Thus the wager. Only one can win that. The other will lose…big time

He still wasn’t buying it. So I said to him, take all that you own, down to the change in your pockets, go to a casino of your choice, have your net worth notorized, and converted to chips to play in the casino. He said to me what a stupid bet that would be. I said why? He said I could lose everything. I said but you could also win? Besides, in your case, if you’re right, why care, you’ll be dead and no memory of anything awaits you.

Even atheists who live solely in the here and now, can see some truths they weren’t ready to step into

 

[Techno2000]

kesa82:

People ask police to die for them, though frankly it seems to me they primarily die for a law, whether in the U.S. , Sweden , or North Korea , a law written primarily for the ruling class and the regime that happens to be in power at the moment.

People ask soldiers to die for them , though in many wars , non-combatants, like infants, too , though frankly I’m not so sure any current nation state is of any more transcendent importance than the Landgraviate of Hesse- Kassel , the Principality of Anhalt - Zerbst , or the Hittite Empire

In comparison to these probably futile and vain slaughters ? To ask Jesus to die for me seems rather a modest and restrained demand.

So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life in North Korea .

If what I often read about millionaires in Hollywood is even half true ,

Then , " live life in the moment " doesn’t even work very well for the rich , the beautiful , and the popular , who live in Disneyland .

With an old friend of mine, who as an atheist, would always ask me God questions. And it always ended up the same way. Nowhere.

So my last response to him was, using the Paschal wager argument, (I paraphrased)

I said to him,

if you’re right and I’m wrong then no harm no foul. We’re just dead. No consequences either way for any good we did or bad we did. No winner no loser, it’s just death. Then I said, if I’m right and you’re wrong, you’re screwed for eternity. No getting out of it.

Thus the wager. Only one can win that. The other will lose…big time

He still wasn’t buying it. So I said to him, take all that you own, down to the change in your pockets, go to a casino of your choice, have your net worth notorized, and converted to chips to play in the casino. He said to me what a stupid bet that would be. I said why? He said I could lose everything. I said but you could also win? Besides, in your case, if you’re right, why care, you’ll be dead and no memory of anything awaits you.

Even atheists who live solely in the here and now, can see some truths they weren’t ready to step into

You should say that if both you and he go to the casino, only you have a chance of winning, plus you can never lose.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

kesa82:

People ask police to die for them, though frankly it seems to me they primarily die for a law, whether in the U.S. , Sweden , or North Korea , a law written primarily for the ruling class and the regime that happens to be in power at the moment.

People ask soldiers to die for them , though in many wars , non-combatants, like infants, too , though frankly I’m not so sure any current nation state is of any more transcendent importance than the Landgraviate of Hesse- Kassel , the Principality of Anhalt - Zerbst , or the Hittite Empire

In comparison to these probably futile and vain slaughters ? To ask Jesus to die for me seems rather a modest and restrained demand.

So maybe best to ignore the whole concept, live life in North Korea .

If what I often read about millionaires in Hollywood is even half true ,

Then , " live life in the moment " doesn’t even work very well for the rich , the beautiful , and the popular , who live in Disneyland .

With an old friend of mine, who as an atheist, would always ask me God questions. And it always ended up the same way. Nowhere.

So my last response to him was, using the Paschal wager argument, (I paraphrased)

I said to him,

if you’re right and I’m wrong then no harm no foul. We’re just dead. No consequences either way for any good we did or bad we did. No winner no loser, it’s just death. Then I said, if I’m right and you’re wrong, you’re screwed for eternity. No getting out of it.

Thus the wager. Only one can win that. The other will lose…big time

He still wasn’t buying it. So I said to him, take all that you own, down to the change in your pockets, go to a casino of your choice, have your net worth notorized, and converted to chips to play in the casino. He said to me what a stupid bet that would be. I said why? He said I could lose everything. I said but you could also win? Besides, in your case, if you’re right, why care, you’ll be dead and no memory of anything awaits you.

Even atheists who live solely in the here and now, can see some truths they weren’t ready to step into

You should say that if both you and he go to the casino, only you have a chance of winning, plus you can never lose.

We’re blessed that our faith isn’t a gamble.

 

[kesa82]

I’ve a friend who is a policeman. I imagine he would arrest anyone who asked him to die

And one of my instructors, who was a 30 year veteran of the police , had a doctorate in criminology, was an honorary colonel in the Georgia State militia, and a dozen other law enforcement -related honorifics I can’t recall , except that it was a dozen, said emphatically more than once that any police officer who thinks he is being paid to fill out forms, write traffic tickets , and get cats out of trees , is either a moron , or a scoundrel , but in either case , should certainly be fired. They don’t give you a badge and a gun to do what any 12 year old girl could just as well do herself.

Surely it’s immoral to encourage anyone to die?

Strictly speaking , I don’t suppose anyone in AD 33 was asking Christ to die for them ??

But , presumably, that is neither here nor there, as , presumably , God saw it as compellingly necessary to do so , whether asked by a million, by a hundred, by one , or by none at all.

So, presumably , there is at least one ( rather big ) caveat in there somewhere.

(and a criminal offense in some jurisdictions).

Yes .
— And no . Care to elaborate on the caveats ? Since you presumably know something about the law , that shouldn’t be a problem.

Jesus already died for you once,

Yes, around the year AD 33 . Congratulations , you told me something …I already knew .

isn’t that enough?

Uh…What ?
" Isn’t that enough " WHAT ??

I asked him to die twice ?? I asked him to die 15 times ??
"Isn’t that enough " what?

You seem to be referencing words I did NOT write.

Here’s what I wrote:

Lol . You’re the one arguing against an argument …I didn’t make.

 

[Lovinglight]

My personal thoughts…the afterlife exists because there is a supernatural force of evil at work in some ppls lives…as well as a force of good and they cant co-exist on earth or in heaven because they come from different sources. Even though ive never doubted the existence of God it was that reality from first hand experience that led to me seeking more answers and ultimately my conversion. Every person is influenced for good or bad even if they refuse to acknowledge the choice or decide on which one to serve…ultimately theyre still making a choice that will affect them for eternity…thats why we should care.

 

[BornInMarch]

The reason the Afterlife matters is because as humans we have deep-seated and inescapable desires in our hearts.

First, we desire for justice - for the good to be rewarded and the bad to be held to account and punished - because we look around ourselves and see that the world is a profoundly unfair and unjust place where the good and the innocent are murdered in agony while the evil are prosperous and shielded from seemingly all consequences. An afterlife fulfils this desire: God can not be bribed, he can not be threatened, he can’t be hidden from, and his jurisdiction extends across all reality. In this way even Hell is a comfort for those who are in Heaven: Psalm 58 sums this up nicely. And not just Hell; Heaven is a source of justice too. It means that the righteous person who nonetheless suffered for the majority of his or her life will finally have peace and warmth.

Second, we desire those whom we love. Throughout our lives we meet people who have good hearts and righteous minds, who show us love and compassion and for whom we have love in our hearts for. Yet through misfortune or age they eventually die and we end up outliving our parents and brothers and spouses and children and friends. If death is oblivion then we will never be able to see them again, but because there is a Heaven we can trust in God’s Mercy and hope if they were as good as they seemed God would take mercy upon them and give them. We hope when we die we’ll see them again and get to spend eternity having good times with them.

Third, we desire life. For all it’s hardships, life is wonderful. Learning and thinking can be deeply fulfilling, the sensations of our physical bodies are enjoyable (even the simplest ones like the feeling of air in your lungs when you breathe), and even hardships make us stronger as we overcome them. It is natural to want this to continue. If death is oblivion then all the memories we stored are gone forever and we will never experience anything ever again, but if there is a Heaven and we meet the qualifications for it then we’ll have an eternity of the best experiences and will be given new bodies free of deformities or disabilities.