US Bishops Set to Tell Catholics Opposed to Teaching on Abortion or Homosexuality not

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I don’t support the slaughter of the Innocents. But I believe I can trust women to make their own decisions. I will not decide that I am smarter or wiser than the woman who chooses this option. Have I experienced what she has? Do I face the same struggles she does? At the heart of the abortion struggle, I frequently see the grim visage of paternalism peaking through on the Pro-Life side. No not all pro-lifers, but some definitely.

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I don’t support the slaughter of ** poor children under 5**. But I believe I can trust women to make their own decisions. I will not decide that I am smarter or wiser than the woman who chooses this option. Have I experienced what she has? Do I face the same struggles she does? At the heart of the the agurement over killing poor children, I frequently see the grim visage of paternalism peaking through on the Pro-Life side. No not all pro-lifers, but some definitely.
 
II don’t know how useful this is going to be anyway. It might trip up the older Catholic pols, but most younger ones I know are avoiding any reference to their Catholicism publicly lest they get caught up in this situation. Not very many of them have missed the importance of the Kerry situation. Some have taken the road I took (to various denoms) and some haven’t been in Church since they were confirmed anyway.
Mark 14

*** 66While Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came by. 67When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him. ***
*
** “You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus,” she said. ***

*** 68But he denied it. “I don’t know or understand what you’re talking about,” he said, and went out into the entryway.g**] *
*** 69When the servant girl saw him there, she said again to those standing around, “This fellow is one of them.” 70Again he denied it.
After a little while, those standing near said to Peter, “Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.” ***

*** 71He began to call down curses on himself, and he swore to them, “I don’t know this man you’re talking about.” ***
*** 72Immediately the rooster crowed the second time.h**] Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows twice*(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=14&version=31#fen-NIV-24820i”)] you will disown me three times.” And he broke down and wept.*
 
estesbob,

You forget, if one wishes to worship Jesus, there are a panoply of ways to do so and Churches in which to show reverence and affirm one’s faith. The Catholic Church is not the only one with Sacraments, the Real Presence, the Communion of Saints and the Credo.
 
estesbob,

You forget, if one wishes to worship Jesus, there are a panoply of ways to do so and Churches in which to show reverence and affirm one’s faith. The Catholic Church is not the only one with Sacraments, the Real Presence, the Communion of Saints and the Credo.
Well actually it is There is only One True Church. You opted out of it, evidently becuase it didnt agree with your politics. But the really disturbing thing is as you mentioned, is how Catholic politicans actually deny their Faith to get votes. Now thats sad.
 
Well actually it is There is only One True Church. You opted out of it, evidently becuase it didnt agree with your politics. But the really disturbing thing is as you mentioned, is how Catholic politicans actually deny their Faith to get votes. Now thats sad.
The political issue is the main thing that drove me out of Catholicism. However, upon beginning to think about it, I’ve found other reasons as well. I have found far greater peace in my new Church.

I don’t know any who are “denying” their faith, just some who aren’t publicizing it.

After all that’s what a lot of people on these boards say: why should candidate X be able to get the votes for being Catholic but then not vote the Church’s agenda. So if the person isn’t promoting their Catholicism, they’re not getting votes for being Catholic and therefore aren’t bound in their voting.
 
The political issue is the main thing that drove me out of Catholicism. However, upon beginning to think about it, I’ve found other reasons as well. I have found far greater peace in my new Church.
I suspect you are a Democrat politican and found that being Democart and Catholic was becoming increasingly difficult. It would seem that the logical solution would have been to try and change the party intead of changing your faith
I don’t know any who are “denying” their faith, just some who aren’t publicizing it.

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And the difference is?

It really comes down to what we conider most important in our lives. Our Faith or our politics. You and I profoundly disgree on this.
 
I suspect you are a Democrat politican and found that being Democart and Catholic was becoming increasingly difficult. It would seem that the logical solution would have been to try and change the party intead of changing your faith

And the difference is?

It really comes down to what we conider most important in our lives. Our Faith of our politics. You and I profoundly disgree on this.
Well, yes. We will profoundly disagree. For a couple of reasons. 1. I am a professional (though low level–baby pol ) politician. 2. For me, my politics isn’t just who I vote for, but a summation of my values and largely an extension of my personality. Liberty, equality, property, solidarity are the core elements there, held in tension against each other. Truth be told, at the base of my philosophies, lie the philosophers of the Enlightenment.
 
Well, yes. We will profoundly disagree. For a couple of reasons. 1. I am a professional (though low level–baby pol ) politician. 2. For me, my politics isn’t just who I vote for, but a summation of my values and largely an extension of my personality. Liberty, equality, property, solidarity are the core elements there, held in tension against each other. Truth be told, at the base of my philosophies, lie the philosophers of the Enlightenment.
Can you tell me what is “enlightened” about killing 47 million of our Children?
 
Can you tell me what is “enlightened” about killing 47 million of our Children?
For the most part, these children weren’t slaughtered. Their mothers simply refused to extend them the hospitality of a stay in their wombs. You may be surprised by this, but I’m actually against 7, 8, or 9th month abortions in just about all cases. That’s because a C-Section at that point in time should be able to be performed and the baby delivered alive. The numbers of abortions performed at this stage is currently low and rightly so! As technology improves, you can tuck 6th month in there too as being a safe place for a C-Section. 4 and 5 month points are harder. The child can’t survive without her mother’s hospitality. I can see benefit on putting reasonable restrictions on these abortions for the simple reason being that abortions at this stage are less safe for the woman and that it isn’t that far to the safe third trimester where a C-Section can be obtained. 1 2 and 3 I see no compelling reason for the government to rule over the property of the young woman. Just as a woman can choose to extend the hospitality of her womb to a child, she can refuse.

Do I want abortions? No, I would gladly a day come when there are none. I have great hope that the morning after pill will reduce their occurence greatly. I hope the artificial womb research going on bears fruit and that abortion clinics can be transformed into foetus adoption centers where women can go and anonymously drop off their feotus.
 
  1. Contraceptive sex is known to be wrong from the natural law. It binds everyone not just Catholics. These issues like abortion, homosexual relations and such are not just Catholic “rules” like no meat on Good Friday.
Your opinion, fine, but many non-Catholic groups, even pro-life Evangelicals, consider the use of contraceptives as good stewardship, especially if condoms rather than chemical abortifacients are the means of contraception.
 
I don’t support the slaughter of ** poor children under 5**. But I believe I can trust women to make their own decisions. I will not decide that I am smarter or wiser than the woman who chooses this option. Have I experienced what she has? Do I face the same struggles she does? At the heart of the the agurement over killing poor children, I frequently see the grim visage of paternalism peaking through on the Pro-Life side. No not all pro-lifers, but some definitely.
I thought about doing the same thing when I read this…Unfortunantly I think the West is headed this way if we don’t stand up and oppose the culture of death. 😦 😦 😦
 
Your opinion, fine, but many non-Catholic groups, even pro-life Evangelicals, consider the use of contraceptives as good stewardship, especially if condoms rather than chemical abortifacients are the means of contraception.
If it were simply my opinion I would agree with you, but it is not opinion that contraceptive intercourse is intrinsically wrong. It is a matter of natural moral law. It is a moral truth.
 
For the most part, these children weren’t slaughtered. Their mothers simply refused to extend them the hospitality of a stay in their wombs. You may be surprised by this, but I’m actually against 7, 8, or 9th month abortions in just about all cases.
For the most part these most part these 5 year old children werent slaughtered-their Mothers simply refused to extend the hospitality of a stay in their homes. You may be suprised but i am actually against the killing 7,8 or 9 year old children in just about all cases…

It is suprising what passes for being “enlightended” these days.
 
For the most part, these children weren’t slaughtered. Their mothers simply refused to extend them the hospitality of a stay in their wombs. You may be surprised by this, but I’m actually against 7, 8, or 9th month abortions in just about all cases. That’s because a C-Section at that point in time should be able to be performed and the baby delivered alive. The numbers of abortions performed at this stage is currently low and rightly so! As technology improves, you can tuck 6th month in there too as being a safe place for a C-Section. 4 and 5 month points are harder. The child can’t survive without her mother’s hospitality. I can see benefit on putting reasonable restrictions on these abortions for the simple reason being that abortions at this stage are less safe for the woman and that it isn’t that far to the safe third trimester where a C-Section can be obtained. 1 2 and 3 I see no compelling reason for the government to rule over the **property **of the young woman. Just as a woman can choose to extend the hospitality of her womb to a child, she can refuse.

Do I want abortions? No, I would gladly a day come when there are none. I have great hope that the morning after pill will reduce their occurence greatly. I hope the artificial womb research going on bears fruit and that abortion clinics can be transformed into foetus adoption centers where women can go and anonymously drop off their feotus.
What about the child that was killed? You know the one who was about 8 weeks along? Does the government have a right to say that people should not kill him or her?

If the children were not “slaughtered, what happened to them?

You talk about “hospitality”. Clearly that is a euphemism, like “special treatment” was in a certain European country in the early 1940s.

“Mothers refuse to extend the hospitality of their womb…” This statement is so profoundly offensive and [self edit here].

You describe a woman’s body as “property”. Or perhaps I misunderstand. Perhaps it is the child she is carrying that is property. Either way, people are not property.

Do you really think abortions would not happen if children could reside in an “artificial womb”? Not a chance. Too expensive. No motivation. People already throw the bodies of children into dumpsters, usually in bags marked as bio-hazard. Why would they change?

The “morning after” pill just kills them when they are younger and weaker. It is not an alternative to abortion; it is an alternative form of it.

Your profile says you are an Episcopalian so arguments from the Catechism will, presumably, have little effect. How about the Bible? When the commandment “Thou shall not kill (murder)” is considered along alongside Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart…” That does not sound like an endorsement or even a toleration of your position. On the other hand, if you do not think of these as binding or definitive, as the Catholic Church teaches, on what biblical basis is abortion specifically acceptable?

Abortion is legal because men want to be able to fornicate and commit adultery. Eventually, women caught on too; believing the lie that sexual gratification at any time with anyone for any reason is okay. Abortion is all about the oppression of women.

Abortion is without a doubt the greatest wholesale massacre of people in history. And why? The silliest of reasons; personal convenience and for men to use women for personal gratification.
 
Abortion is without a doubt the greatest wholesale massacre of people in history. And why? The silliest of reasons; personal convenience and for men to use women for personal gratification.
Often overlooked in the abortion debate is how invested men are in “choice” In all my years of counseling i can not tell you the number of boyfirends who sat their urging thier girlfriend to excercise her choice. More often that not when she excercised her “choice” not to kill their child he excercised his choice to walk out of her life.

BTW-you mentioned A_cermark religious affiliation. if you read through the thread you’ll see he used to be Catholic but left the Faith specifically beauces he got involved in Democrat politics and our Faith was a hindrance to that.
 
For the most part these most part these 5 year old children werent slaughtered-their Mothers simply refused to extend the hospitality of a stay in their homes. You may be suprised but i am actually against the killing 7,8 or 9 year old children in just about all cases…

It is suprising what passes for being “enlightended” these days.
One thing I have never quite understood (perhaps I had a Puritanical upbringing) but this business of women having a choice over their bodies, they did not get pregnant by themselves. Suppose the father does not believe in abortion. What then? Not so many years ago folks tried very hard not to get pregnant because there was shame in society then. Now everything is acceptable with far too many people.
 
I look forward to what the US Bishops say on “Happy Are Those Who Are Called To His Supper: On Preparing To Receive Christ Worthily in the Eucharist” in November.

In the US, the Bishops are free to teach Catholics about the proper state to receive the Eucharist. And the Bishops certainly can instruct Catholic (Democratic) politicians on what is and is not acceptable to support politically as a Catholic. I’m sure posters here can supply the Bishops a hit list of Catholic Democratic politicians who do not support the Catholic church in abortion, homosexuality and birth control (birth control pills cause chemical abortions).

As a Democrat and an American, I think the Bishops should lay down the law to the Democrat politicians. Choose your oath of office, your party, or your religion. Criminalize birth control pills, criminalize abortion, criminalize homosexuality or forget the sacraments. Nothing would split the Republican coalition more. Or get my party more votes.

If the US Bishops demand politicians criminalize birth control pills or forget the sacraments, then they can demand no less from Catholic women. If Catholic women use birth control, obviously they have no right to receive the Eucharist. Let me know if I’m incorrect.

I’m sure other posters here would enjoy the clarification of Catholic teachings and the subsequent cleansing of the church. Even if this action effects the popularity of the Republican party. Or the political clout of the Catholic church. Unless I’m missing something here.

Weird what you get when you get religious doctrine and politics and money all mixed up.
 
Hi Mike,

I’m all for the Bishops clarifying the requirment of being in a state of grace in order to receive the Eucharist. I think it should be taught more firmly by every priest, as well. And, they should reaffirm this to all politicians, as they have (they have not singled out Democrats on pro-life issues, they have made statements about Catholic politicians…it just so happens that the Catholic politicians who are taking pro-choice stances are Democrats).

What I don’t understand in your post is how this is supposed to “effect the popularity of the Republican party”, get your party more votes and/or “split the Republican coalition.” Could you explain please?

Thanks and God bless,

Robert
I look forward to what the US Bishops say on “Happy Are Those Who Are Called To His Supper: On Preparing To Receive Christ Worthily in the Eucharist” in November.

In the US, the Bishops are free to teach Catholics about the proper state to receive the Eucharist. And the Bishops certainly can instruct Catholic (Democratic) politicians on what is and is not acceptable to support politically as a Catholic. I’m sure posters here can supply the Bishops a hit list of Catholic Democratic politicians who do not support the Catholic church in abortion, homosexuality and birth control (birth control pills cause chemical abortions).

As a Democrat and an American, I think the Bishops should lay down the law to the Democrat politicians. Choose your oath of office, your party, or your religion. Criminalize birth control pills, criminalize abortion, criminalize homosexuality or forget the sacraments. Nothing would split the Republican coalition more. Or get my party more votes.

If the US Bishops demand politicians criminalize birth control pills or forget the sacraments, then they can demand no less from Catholic women. If Catholic women use birth control, obviously they have no right to receive the Eucharist. Let me know if I’m incorrect.

I’m sure other posters here would enjoy the clarification of Catholic teachings and the subsequent cleansing of the church. Even if this action effects the popularity of the Republican party. Or the political clout of the Catholic church. Unless I’m missing something here.

Weird what you get when you get religious doctrine and politics and money all mixed up.
 
Wrong wrong wrong… its still murder. Plain and simple.
For the most part, these children weren’t slaughtered. Their mothers simply refused to extend them the hospitality of a stay in their wombs.
 
Weird what you get when you get religious doctrine and politics and money all mixed up.
What’s weird is beleiveing that one should actually subordinate their Faith to their politics. If requiring a Poltician who claims to be Catholic publicly adhere to the teachings of the Church costs either party votes so what?
 
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