US Bishops Set to Tell Catholics Opposed to Teaching on Abortion or Homosexuality not

[a_cermak]

Do you have children??? Children destroy dreams? Children ruin lives? If that is true why stop the killing at birth? why not let parents have until their child’s 18th birthday to decide if they should be allowed to live. after all circumstances change-what is wanted today could be a life ruiner of dream destroyer tomorrow-that is for those who believe that children who inconvenience us should be killed.

Yes, I have a wonderful daughter, my Johanna Rose. Thanks for asking.

The point I was trying to make is that if you have a child when you are in high school, the chances of you finishing are less than if you don’t have that child. This corresponds to a lower lifetime income and to a lifetime of struggle just to survive most of the time. The same, to a lesser extent can be said of college. Young women who get pregnant in college frequently drop out before finishing. Recent stats show a $20000 difference a year between those with a college degree and those without. That’s a big difference in lifestyle.

Then you take the dreams. Let’s say a young woman wants to be a journalist (which usually now requires a degree) and bears a child in college and therefore doesn’t finish (some do finish while having children and kudos to them), her dream of being a journalist is unfulfilled before she’s ever really tried it. Not only that, she may already be on the hook for student loans that she’ll have a hard time paying back with the job set she’s likely to be qualified for. Now, I’m not saying that her life won’t be unfulfilling all together. Maybe she’ll pursue other dreams. But I would be lying if I said that untimely pregnancies don’t complicate women’s lives.

So an economy that doesn’t result in ruined lives or destroyed dreams might involve offering low-cost day care or deferred student loans for child-bearing.

I’ve never had an abortion. I’ve only known 2 other women who have. In both of their cases they were college students who faced parents being unwilling to continue paying tuition if they bore the babies. A question I’ve always had is why women have abortions. I mean, we spend a lot of time beating each other politically over the heads with the statistics, but the main thing I’d like to know (why) is seldom talked about. If we understood why better, we might be able to change the situation so that the outcome differs.

 

[fix]

Yes, I have a wonderful daughter, my Johanna Rose. Thanks for asking.

The point I was trying to make is that if you have a child when you are in high school, the chances of you finishing are less than if you don’t have that child. This corresponds to a lower lifetime income and to a lifetime of struggle just to survive most of the time. The same, to a lesser extent can be said of college. Young women who get pregnant in college frequently drop out before finishing. Recent stats show a $20000 difference a year between those with a college degree and those without. That’s a big difference in lifestyle.

Then you take the dreams. Let’s say a young woman wants to be a journalist (which usually now requires a degree) and bears a child in college and therefore doesn’t finish (some do finish while having children and kudos to them), her dream of being a journalist is unfulfilled before she’s ever really tried it. Not only that, she may already be on the hook for student loans that she’ll have a hard time paying back with the job set she’s likely to be qualified for. Now, I’m not saying that her life won’t be unfulfilling all together. Maybe she’ll pursue other dreams. But I would be lying if I said that untimely pregnancies don’t complicate women’s lives.

So an economy that doesn’t result in ruined lives or destroyed dreams might involve offering low-cost day care or deferred student loans for child-bearing.

I’ve never had an abortion. I’ve only known 2 other women who have. In both of their cases they were college students who faced parents being unwilling to continue paying tuition if they bore the babies. A question I’ve always had is why women have abortions. I mean, we spend a lot of time beating each other politically over the heads with the statistics, but the main thing I’d like to know (why) is seldom talked about. If we understood why better, we might be able to change the situation so that the outcome differs.

I believe your position right here bears out what most studies show that the number one reason for abortion is convenience.

 

[Richardols]

I believe your position right here bears out what most studies show that the number one reason for abortion is convenience.

I agree. My wife worked very hard in an alternatives-to-abortion operation for many years (until burnout got her) and I don’t think we ever encountered a case where health, rape, or incest was a factor.

 

[a_cermak]

I believe your position right here bears out what most studies show that the number one reason for abortion is convenience.

But what kind of convenience? Can we reduce the number of abortions by making child-bearing more convenient? By tinkering with student loans? By offering more cheap daycare? By offering prepaid college with bulk (less if > 2 children) discounts?

I’m convinced that if we could poll and get honest answers to the poll, that we could lump the answers into categories and some could be impacted by governmental policy. Some could not. I’m sure that a certain percentage is due to adultery, for instance.

 

[estesbob]

Yes, I have a wonderful daughter, my Johanna Rose. Thanks for asking.

The point I was trying to make is that if you have a child when you are in high school, the chances of you finishing are less than if you don’t have that child. This corresponds to a lower lifetime income and to a lifetime of struggle just to survive most of the time. The same, to a lesser extent can be said of college. Young women who get pregnant in college frequently drop out before finishing. Recent stats show a $20000 difference a year between those with a college degree and those without. That’s a big difference in lifestyle.

Then you take the dreams. Let’s say a young woman wants to be a journalist (which usually now requires a degree) and bears a child in college and therefore doesn’t finish (some do finish while having children and kudos to them), her dream of being a journalist is unfulfilled before she’s ever really tried it. Not only that, she may already be on the hook for student loans that she’ll have a hard time paying back with the job set she’s likely to be qualified for. Now, I’m not saying that her life won’t be unfulfilling all together. Maybe she’ll pursue other dreams. But I would be lying if I said that untimely pregnancies don’t complicate women’s lives.

So an economy that doesn’t result in ruined lives or destroyed dreams might involve offering low-cost day care or deferred student loans for child-bearing.

I’ve never had an abortion. I’ve only known 2 other women who have. In both of their cases they were college students who faced parents being unwilling to continue paying tuition if they bore the babies. A question I’ve always had is why women have abortions. I mean, we spend a lot of time beating each other politically over the heads with the statistics, but the main thing I’d like to know (why) is seldom talked about. If we understood why better, we might be able to change the situation so that the outcome differs.

So you believe its Ok to kill your children if they inconvenience you? Why do you draw the line at when the head exits womb?

A woman in college gets pregnant , kills her child and you believe that is societies fault? How so?

 

[estesbob]

But what kind of convenience? Can we reduce the number of abortions by making child-bearing more convenient? By tinkering with student loans? By offering more cheap daycare? By offering prepaid college with bulk (less if > 2 children) discounts?

I’m convinced that if we could poll and get honest answers to the poll, that we could lump the answers into categories and some could be impacted by governmental policy. Some could not. I’m sure that a certain percentage is due to adultery, for instance.

So we hold children hostage to political agenda’s? Is the attitude “Vote for taxpayer funded day care OR I’ll kill my child???”

There is NEVER an excuse to kill ones child. Never.

 

[estesbob]

I agree. My wife worked very hard in an alternatives-to-abortion operation for many years (until burnout got her) and I don’t think we ever encountered a case where health, rape, or incest was a factor.

It can be frsutating We would actaully have volunteers counsel on mondays and then go out on Tueday and vote for a pro-abortion canidate. Talk about a moral buster…

 

[a_cermak]

So you believe its Ok to kill your children if they inconvenience you? Why do you draw the line at when the head exits womb?

You’ve asked me this a number of times, I’ve always thought it self-evident, but the reason I draw the line there at the end of the 6 month of gestation (except in the very, very, very rare case of heatlh/life of mother) and have a fairly firm line at the end of the 3rd month of gestation is because at the stage that the child can survive (breathe, eat, drink, eliminate) without its mother’s body it can be removed from its mother’s body. And when it is removed from its mother’s body and is able to eat, drink, breathe and eliminate waste (whether aided by machine or not), it is a human being with all the rights under the Federal, State, City, County, Township, or other local unit of government Laws.

 

[estesbob]

You’ve asked me this a number of times, I’ve always thought it self-evident, but the reason I draw the line there at the end of the 6 month of gestation (except in the very, very, very rare case of heatlh/life of mother) and have a fairly firm line at the end of the 3rd month of gestation is because at the stage that the child can survive (breathe, eat, drink, eliminate) without its mother’s body it can be removed from its mother’s body. And when it is removed from its mother’s body and is able to eat, drink, breathe and eliminate waste (whether aided by machine or not), it is a human being with all the rights under the Federal, State, City, County, Township, or other local unit of government Laws.

It is self evident that you beleive there are circumstances where it is acceptable to kill ones child. Thats sad.

 

[fix]

But what kind of convenience? Can we reduce the number of abortions by making child-bearing more convenient? By tinkering with student loans? By offering more cheap daycare? By offering prepaid college with bulk (less if > 2 children) discounts?

I’m convinced that if we could poll and get honest answers to the poll, that we could lump the answers into categories and some could be impacted by governmental policy. Some could not. I’m sure that a certain percentage is due to adultery, for instance.

I am no expert and perhaps some informed folks will correct me but I think many, perhaps most, abortions happen to married women? Helping the finances of deserving folks is good, but is that the biggest variable is these cases?

 

[rpp]

You’ve asked me this a number of times, I’ve always thought it self-evident, but the reason I draw the line there at the end of the 6 month of gestation (except in the very, very, very rare case of heatlh/life of mother) and have a fairly firm line at the end of the 3rd month of gestation is because at the stage that the child can survive (breathe, eat, drink, eliminate) without its mother’s body it can be removed from its mother’s body. And when it is removed from its mother’s body and is able to eat, drink, breathe and eliminate waste (whether aided by machine or not), it is a human being with all the rights under the Federal, State, City, County, Township, or other local unit of government Laws.

Arbitrary. Murder is murder. Whether you slice them up in the womb or heard them a hundred at a time into a gas chamber. You cannot distinguish. You say these things to justify in your own mind that you are not murdering people. But when you do, you lie to yourself. I repeat, you lie to yourself to assuage your conscience. Nothing less. Nothing more.

I am gratefful that you chose not to murder your daughter.

 

[a_cermak]

I am no expert and perhaps some informed folks will correct me but I think many, perhaps most, abortions happen to married women? Helping the finances of deserving folks is good, but is that the biggest variable is these cases?

I don’t know. Like I said, if we could poll on it and get some honest feedback, we might be able better to determine the why’s and understanding the why’s might yield policy answers. Maybe not, certainly, but I think it would be a useful exercise.

I definitely think that adultery is a cause of some non-health related abortions (of the baby or the mother), but is it 1%? 2%? 10%? I know a negative result on a pre-natal test is another reason (e.g. Down’s, Tay Sachs, Cystic…) but again, does this account for 1%? 2%? 10%? Is it fear of losing their jobs? Maybe we need to remind employers that they can’t fire for that reason.

 

[Richardols]

I am no expert and perhaps some informed folks will correct me but I think many, perhaps most, abortions happen to married women? Helping the finances of deserving folks is good, but is that the biggest variable is these cases?

The cases we saw here in Little Rock were mostly single girls. That could be a function of sort of services offered. A single girl is looking for help, a married woman might be aware of what her insurance will pay for, where an abortion could be performed, etc. So, your premise could possibly be true.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The kids who killed Michael Jordan’s father were underage. Their names and faces couldn’t be shown in the news or on TV and they could not be interviewed.

Some enterprising newsperson went to the reformatory they had just been released from and interviewed kids there. The interviewer noticed none of the kids in the reformatory had any feeling or sympathy for the victim. Finally she asked, “What would you say to Michael Jordan?”

And one kid said, “Wouldn’t say nothing. He had something to do with it, didn’t he?”

The interviewer asked, “What could Michael Jordan possibly have to do with his father’s murder?”

And the little sociopath replied, “If he hadn’t a given him all that money, they wouldn’t a had to rob him.”

That kind of thinking permeates the pro-abortion side – that somehow abortion is not the fault of those who comitt that horrible crime – it’s everyone else’s fault. That’s why so many pro-abortion politicians and activists pretend we can solve abortion with more “social programs.”

 

[Richardols]

Arbitrary. Murder is murder. Whether you slice them up in the womb or heard them a hundred at a time into a gas chamber. You cannot distinguish. You say these things to justify in your own mind that you are not murdering people. But when you do, you lie to yourself. I repeat, you lie to yourself to assuage your conscience. Nothing less. Nothing more.

I am gratefful that you chose not to murder your daughter.

Friend, you do best to step back from remarks that border on self-righteous ad hominem attacks. If for no other reason but that personal attacks are a violation of the rules.

 

[estesbob]

Friend, you do best to step back from remarks that border on self-righteous ad hominem attacks. If for no other reason but that personal attacks are a violation of the rules.

I went to a seminar once where we talked about research showing the Children of a parent who had had an abortion had trust issues with their parents and often suffered from Survivors guilt. the same appears to afflict, to a lesser degree, the children of those who were outspokenly pro-abortion It is hard for a child to follow the rationlaiztions given for killing another child(as it is hard for me).

 

[estesbob]

The cases we saw here in Little Rock were mostly single girls. That could be a function of sort of services offered. A single girl is looking for help, a married woman might be aware of what her insurance will pay for, where an abortion could be performed, etc. So, your premise could possibly be true.

I think it mostly has to do with location. We were in the suburbs near 3 high schools. Becuase of this we got a lot of teens. When i talekd to people who worked at CPCs in the city they got a lot more married women and adults than we did.

 

[rpp]

Friend, you do best to step back from remarks that border on self-righteous ad hominem attacks. If for no other reason but that personal attacks are a violation of the rules.

“Friend” is a rather condscending manner of address in this context.

It is not self-righteous when you point out horrific mortal sin to another. We are, infact required to correct those who embrace or defend siin as is clearly described in Ezekiel 3:18-19.
(18) If I say to the wicked man, You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death. (19)If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life. (NAB version)
Please stop aiding the murder of innocents by your support. If you do, you will the blood the those killed as well as those who did the killing on your hands as you see from Ezekiel’s admonition above.

 

[Richardols]

Friend, please stop defending the murder of innocents.

Just love the emotional language, but it in no way excuses an ad hominem post.

 

[estesbob]

Just love the emotional language, but it in no way excuses an ad hominem post.

Many of us do tend to get emotional about the killing of 1.2 million chidren a year by their parents. What i wonder is how you could NOT get emotional? 1.2 million dead children a year and your concern is we might hurt the feelings of those who support it?