US Bishops Set to Tell Catholics Opposed to Teaching on Abortion or Homosexuality not

[rpp]

Just love the emotional language, but it in no way excuses an ad hominem post.

What you should have said, but did not, is:

“Just love the emotional language, but it in no way excuses the murder of children.”

I suppose I do get a little emotional at what you and other who support or at least defend the murder more of innocents. More than 40 million since 1973. Not to mention the lives of many women destroyed by the realization that you are wrong and they murdered their own child.

The best way to describe my feelings when I read these posts is that of a man who has been beaten up, lifting his head from the mud and looking up at the smiling face of the Nazi holding the club.

Emotional? I plead guilty.

That does not change the fact the people must lie to themselves when they say abortion is not murder. No one wants the think of themselves as accesories to murder.

Your defense? Accuse those who state the truth of “being emotional” or “self-righteous”. In fact it is common for liberal defenders of some horific public evil, like abortion, pornography or sodomy-based marriage, accuse the who potest against these as being “self-righteous”. It is in fact those who say these things who are usually the self-righteous. That is becuase they have to invent a whole morality for themself in order to be right.

This is nothing less than calling evil good and good evil.

But then liberals have been doing that for quite a while.

 

[vern_humphrey]

In response to this post:

Originally Posted by rpp
Arbitrary. Murder is murder. Whether you slice them up in the womb or heard them a hundred at a time into a gas chamber. You cannot distinguish. You say these things to justify in your own mind that you are not murdering people. But when you do, you lie to yourself. I repeat, you lie to yourself to assuage your conscience. Nothing less. Nothing more.

I am gratefful that you chose not to murder your daughter…

Richard said:

Friend, you do best to step back from remarks that border on self-righteous ad hominem attacks. If for no other reason but that personal attacks are a violation of the rules.

Richard, abortion is murder. If we can’t say that on a Catholic forum, then we have carried political correctness too far.

For a parent to kill a child is murder – whether the child has passed through the birth canal or not.

 

[Richardols]

I suppose I do get a little emotional at what you and other who support or at least defend the murder of innocents.

First, point us to the post in which I supported or defended abortion. I’ve come to dislike posts that inaccurately describe what I said or didn’t say.

That does not change the fact the people must lie to themselves when they say abortion is not murder. No one wants the think of themselves as accesories to murder.

I am an attorney. I am well acquainted with what is and what isn’t murder. Though it might satisfy you to throw the term about in any fashion you like, at least in my State, abortion, vile as it is, does not consititute murder.

Your defense? Accuse those who state the truth of “being emotional.”

No. Accuse those who use ad hominems of violating Forum rules.

But then liberals have been doing that for quite a while.

And, conclude your post with an insult, knowing that I am a liberal politically. Search my posts, and find those where I insult the conservative posters.

Yours is not too nice a demonstration of civility IMO.

BTW, as an example of civility, I have exchanged more than a few posts with Vern, and I have yet to read one of his where he accused me of calling good evil and evil good. You might consider following his example.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I am an attorney. I am well acquainted with what is and what isn’t murder. Though it might satisfy you to throw the term about in any fashion you like, at least in my State, abortion, vile as it is, does not consititute murder.

Check your lawbooks, Richard, and see if they have the imprimateur or the nihil obstat.

Man can make laws, he cannot make morality. Killing the innocent is murder, regardless of how many laws say the opposite.

 

[cheese_sdc]

As reported, this document troubles me, but I will wait and read the actual document when it is available.

I don’t recall Jesus giving out theological quizzes at the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes, or at the Last Supper.

 

[vern_humphrey]

As reported, this document troubles me, but I will wait and read the actual document when it is available.

I don’t recall Jesus giving out theological quizzes at the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes, or at the Last Supper.

Were you actually there at those two events?

 

[cheese_sdc]

Were you actually there at those two events?

I trust the gospel writer’s recollection of the events.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I trust the gospel writer’s recollection of the events.

John 21, 25

25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

 

[fix]

As reported, this document troubles me, but I will wait and read the actual document when it is available.

I don’t recall Jesus giving out theological quizzes at the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes, or at the Last Supper.

I recall He left a living authority to teach and bind in these matters.

 

[rpp]

First, point us to the post in which I supported or defended abortion. I’ve come to dislike posts that inaccurately describe what I said or didn’t say.

Yeow! I did just that. You know what I found? I was wrong. It is clear I had confused you with another poster.

For that confusion I sincerely apologize.

I am an attorney. I am well acquainted with what is and what isn’t murder. Though it might satisfy you to throw the term about in any fashion you like, at least in my State, abortion, vile as it is, does not consititute murder.

It does not matter what state or country you live in, abortion (except for ectopic pregnancies) is always murder. Now, in many places in the world, the civil government has chosen to legalize certain forms of murder. That is the case in the USA.

No. Accuse those who use ad hominems of violating Forum rules.

To state that people who support abortion must lie to themselves that it is not a person or not a murder is not an emotional argument. It is a observation. No one, as I said, wants to think of themselves as a murderer or an accessory to murder.

And, conclude your post with an insult, knowing that I am a liberal politically. Search my posts, and find those where I insult the conservative posters.

While I stand by what I said. Since you had proved in your first point that I did not know what you stood for, I obviously could not know that you are politicaly liberal. That was not a personal slam against you. Liberals (or anyone else, but in America right now it is mostly liberal Democrats) who support laws in clear violation of Catholic moral teaching must call evil good and good evil in order to justify in their own minds the evil they condone or promote. It all comes down to lying to yourself when you reject both Catholic moral teaching and natural law. (Those are theological terms, not legal ones. Arguments based on civil law are specious in determining the morality of abortion, among other things.)

Yours is not too nice a demonstration of civility IMO.

BTW, as an example of civility, I have exchanged more than a few posts with Vern, and I have yet to read one of his where he accused me of calling good evil and evil good. You might consider following his example.

Yes, you are right there. On the other hand, when someone responds to me with the condescending “Friend…” as an opening, it pushes a button. I must learn to ignore insults like these. Thank you.

 

[estesbob]

I trust the gospel writer’s recollection of the events.

The Gospel writers made it clear that Jesus founded a Church and whatever that church Bound in heaven was bound on earth. I dint recall them saying we first get to decide if what is bound is compatible with our politics before we accept it.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Bit of a stretch to think that Jesus conjured papyrus and stylus for all those people there and said:

"Okay, y’all listen up!

First question! True or False: The bread you are eating is a symbol of my flesh.

Second question! Be quiet on the back row! Thank you. Second question: Short answer: What do I think about the money changers in the temple?

Third question! Fill in the blank! If you had faith the size of a blank you could move mountains.

Okay. Those who answered all the questions correctly, you’re good to eat the bread and fish. Those who didn’t… well, see you in the outer darkness! Bring your best wailing voice."

 

[estesbob]

First, point us to the post in which I supported or defended abortion. I’ve come to dislike posts that inaccurately describe what I said or didn’t say.

.

You do , however, avidly support and defend those who enable the killing of 1.2 million children a year… how does that differ from you supporting and defending abortion? Are we to condemn those who ran the gas chambers and excuse those who hired them to do so?

 

[Richardols]

Check your lawbooks, Richard, and see if they have the imprimateur or the nihil obstat.

You got me there, Vern. Only one does. A volume on Canon Law.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Bit of a stretch to think that Jesus conjured papyrus and stylus for all those people there and said:

"Okay, y’all listen up!

First question! True or False: The bread you are eating is a symbol of my flesh.

Second question! Be quiet on the back row! Thank you. Second question: Short answer: What do I think about the money changers in the temple?

Third question! Fill in the blank! If you had faith the size of a blank you could move mountains.

Okay. Those who answered all the questions correctly, you’re good to eat the bread and fish. Those who didn’t… well, see you in the outer darkness! Bring your best wailing voice."

First of all, you write on papyrus with a pen. A stylus was for writing on wax tablets.

Secondly, do you deny that Jesus taught?

If not, what was the point of all those sermons and parables – just entertainment?

 

[fix]

Bit of a stretch to think that Jesus conjured papyrus and stylus for all those people there and said:

Did He not say to His apostles he who hears you hears Me?

 

[vern_humphrey]

You got me there, Vern. Only one does. A volume on Canon Law.

And therefore it is pointless to say that man, by passing laws (or in this instance, by court ruling) can over-ride God in matters of morals.

What the lawbooks say is not relevant in this discussion – we answer to a higher Law. And that higher Law clearly says killing the unborn is unlawful – and that is murder by definition.

 

[Richardols]

While I stand by what I said. Since you had proved in your first point that I did not know what you stood for, I obviously could not know that you were a political leftist. That was not a personal slam against you. Liberals who support laws in clear violation of Catholic moral teaching must call evil good and good evil in order to justify in their own minds the evil they condone or promote.

Just us Lefties, huh? You might look and see that there are more than a few Republicans (politicians and laity - even some conservatives) who also support abortion laws…

Yes, you are right there. On the other hand, when someone responds to me with the condescending “Friend…” as an opening, it pushes a button. I must learn to ignore insults like these. Thank you.

I apologize and will not call you a friend from now on as it bothers you. This is no problem as there are others on this Forum whom I regard as friends, even though we’ve not met, and even though we don’t always share the same positions. I am thinking of Lance and Vern and Aimee among others, and of course, some of the other lefties.

 

[Richardols]

What the lawbooks say is not relevant in this discussion – we answer to a higher Law. And that higher Law clearly says killing the unborn is unlawful – and that is murder by definition.

Even that can be tricky. Say that you came across a situation where a murderer was killing children on a playground. I don’t think that you’d hesitate for a second to use your piece to kill him. But, say that you were walking past an abortion facility where killing of the unborn was being done - same crime by your lights - murder is murder. I’m also equally sure that you wouldn’t run in there and waste the abortionist to protet the innocent.

I find it easier to stick to the statutory definition of murder, but that’s just me.

 

[rpp]

Just us Lefties, huh? You might look and see that there are more than a few Republicans (politicians and laity - even some conservatives) who also support abortion laws…

I apologize and will not call you a friend from now on as it bothers you. This is no problem as there are others on this Forum whom I regard as friends, even though we’ve not met, and even though we don’t always share the same positions. I am thinking of Lance and Vern and Aimee among others, and of course, some of the other lefties.

Twho things bother me about this.

Your first quote does not seem to match what I wrote. That is the second time you did that.

I do not see the point of your second paragraph at all, particularly coming from someone who felt the need to tell me I was being insulting.