US Constitution and Catholic Doctrine (subsidiarity)

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It never got off the ground, really, but the Bush plan for partial privatization of social security would have been more in line with the Social Encyclicals than is the present system, which is welfare disguised as a “savings plan”, with the government as your heir, and no means testing.

I personally have no problem with government welfare for those who really need it, but when the maximum SS benefit can be received by billionaires and those with insufficient “quarters” due to disability (or homemaking) get less than $600, I think that’s very wrong.

Incredibly, the USCCB came out in opposition to the “partial privatization” plan, even though it was voluntary, as conceived.
I truly did wonder whether the bishops had ever read the Social Encyclicals or, having read them, ignored them.
Do you remember what reasons the Bishops offered? I agree with you that it is odd for them to have been against it…other than knee-jerk liberalism.

One of the other negatives of the SS system is that it creates no wealth, at all. African Americans, for one, have a shorter life expectancy. If you die before you collect Social Security…too bad…money’s gone. With the Bush plan, at least the accumulated money, even if you had a small return, would have gone to your heirs.
 
While this discussion is interesting and many valid points have been made, I cannot help but consider the role of the federal government required to do away with slavery and its role in bringing civil rights to those who were treated separate but “equal.” That type of situation is always a problem when every thing is left to be accomplished at the lowest possible level. Subsidiarity is good in theory, but often lacks justice in practice. It is human nature that when I have “got mine” through my own efforts that I do not want to share it with others. It is that multiplied many fold that becomes the problem with the Church’s notion of subsidiarity.
I agree, but I consider basic rights a different matter than social welfare programs. The basic rights enumerated in the Constitution are appropriate. I would also, for example, be in favor of a right-to-life Amendment that extends to the unborn.

All those things are different than bureaucratic systems such as welfare programs, Social Security, etc. They are inefficient and would be better if they were closer to the individual, whether private or public.
 
One of the other negatives of the SS system is that it creates no wealth, at all. African Americans, for one, have a shorter life expectancy. If you die before you collect Social Security…too bad…money’s gone. With the Bush plan, at least the accumulated money, even if you had a small return, would have gone to your heirs.
SS was not to creat wealth. It is a safety net. At least something coming in. But never to creat wealth.

If some one thinks for a second they can live off social security in the sense as a way of creating wealth we need to educate them.

However Social Security does more than be a source of income of retired people. It is a source of income for retired people. It is a source of income for many disabled and disabled veterans.

I will agree that the government can not and should not do everything for it’s citizens but it is there for a safeguard to make sure all of it’s citizens are protected both in security and general welfare (well being).

To make this country full effecient we need equal participation from citizen, business and government. That is our society and we need to work together.

I do like the idea of what Obama wants to do with a single payer health insurance. But obviously more details need to be worked out and laws put in place so there is no abuse. Remember it took until 1993 for welfare reform to get in place to eliminate the wide spread abuse of the system.

That is why I posted what I did from the CCC. The government has a responsibility to protect is citizens both military, and socially. But I will agree with out limiting freedoms of it’s citizens (such as how many homes you can own, where one can work, live, etc).
Right now citizens and business are not completely living up to the bargain. We can all agree some do but not all. Poverty has increased over the past 8 years. I believe the economic system did not favor those most vulnerable (albiet abortion but then again some claimed they had an abortion because of economic reasons). WE need to achieve a fine oiled machine were we all are one.
 
I agree, but I consider basic rights a different matter than social welfare programs. The basic rights enumerated in the Constitution are appropriate. I would also, for example, be in favor of a right-to-life Amendment that extends to the unborn.

All those things are different than bureaucratic systems such as welfare programs, Social Security, etc. They are inefficient and would be better if they were closer to the individual, whether private or public.
I failed to mention that with the current markets it may of been a disaster on people who had their social security on the open market.

I will say this Robert. I agree if there is to be any type of socialized medicine (traditional universal or single payer insurance system) there needs to be amendment towards abortions. I am not paying my tax dollars to help some one have an abortion. But I am ready to pay more in taxes to make sure all of us have affordable but equal healthcare.
 
SS was not to creat wealth. It is a safety net. At least something coming in. But never to creat wealth.

If some one thinks for a second they can live off social security in the sense as a way of creating wealth we need to educate them.

However Social Security does more than be a source of income of retired people. It is a source of income for retired people. It is a source of income for many disabled and disabled veterans.

I will agree that the government can not and should not do everything for it’s citizens but it is there for a safeguard to make sure all of it’s citizens are protected both in security and general welfare (well being).

To make this country full effecient we need equal participation from citizen, business and government. That is our society and we need to work together.

I do like the idea of what Obama wants to do with a single payer health insurance. But obviously more details need to be worked out and laws put in place so there is no abuse. Remember it took until 1993 for welfare reform to get in place to eliminate the wide spread abuse of the system.

That is why I posted what I did from the CCC. **The government **has a responsibility to protect is citizens both military, and socially. But I will agree with out limiting freedoms of it’s citizens (such as how many homes you can own, where one can work, live, etc).
Right now citizens and business are not completely living up to the bargain. We can all agree some do but not all. Poverty has increased over the past 8 years. I believe the economic system did not favor those most vulnerable (albiet abortion but then again some claimed they had an abortion because of economic reasons). WE need to achieve a fine oiled machine were we all are one.
The problem is that you equate “government” with federal government. What I created this thread for is to discuss both the limits of government involvement and the principle of subsidiarity.

As far as Social Security, I understand it is a safety net, but it is going to fail due to lack of funding. It is a poorly thought out system. As Ridgerunner points out, it actually favors the rich. I’m surprised you are in favor of something that favors the rich.
 
I will say this Robert. I agree if there is to be any type of socialized medicine (traditional universal or single payer insurance system) there needs to be amendment towards abortions. I am not paying my tax dollars to help some one have an abortion. But I am ready to pay more in taxes to make sure all of us have affordable but equal healthcare.
An abortion amendment makes sense on a federal level.

You still haven’t answered my earlier question regarding the rightful place for healthcare programs being at the state level. Why can’t states have different solutions that work for their people rather than a national program?
 
An abortion amendment makes sense on a federal level.

You still haven’t answered my earlier question regarding the rightful place for healthcare programs being at the state level. Why can’t states have different solutions that work for their people rather than a national program?
I didnt say that the states couldnt. I guess like I said in my post a moment ago I was referring to all levels of government. I apologize for being so general. If I am right Massachusetts single payer system is working?

As long as it helps all people especially the poor and it is affordable to all (free to the most poor and children) BUT equal, I am for it.

I was not joking when I said in that other thread we are the laughing stock of alot of countries. I once had a dinner meeting with a client who is actually from Venuzuela. He had met me down in Houston to look at a manufacturing process. So after a few drinks we got a little open in discussion and of course stupid me I made sure his current President came up. Well you can imagine how that went. I was civil but just not flattering to Chavez becaues I was expressing my concerns.

Long story short. He put me right in my place when he said. "Sure he is consolidating power and personally I believe you have nothing to say what we do down there, you have your own problems. You Americans can not even make sure all your citizens have good healthcare. We Venuzualians have to provide free oil to your countrymen so they can heat their homes.

Not nice of him to say but it is the truth.

You may not like that but you can see the gentleman had a certain point.
 
Same goes for the State and Local. So when I say government I mean all levels of government.
Well, no, “same” doesn’t go for the State and Local. That is what subsidarity is all about.
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josephdavid:
In your point of views how does it favor the rich?

As for funding well we can take several measure to secure that HOWEVER first thing we need to do is STOP taking from it to pay for other things. I hate to use this phrase but SS needs a lock box (again forgive me for using that expression). I think at one point something like $2 trillion was borrowed from social security. That is crazy!
As many have pointed out, it is basically a tax, yes? It is 6% plus the employer’s 6% up to a maximum income. Everyone gets paid out based on the number of years worked and contributions, regardless of need. The rich typically have a longer life expectancy than the poor, so they get paid out longer. So, what you have is a poor person paying 6% of all of their income versus a rich person paying 6% of part of their income (okay…or 12% if they are self-employed). They get paid out accordingly, but the poor person dies earlier, so they are paid out less. Great system! :rolleyes:
 
Well, no, “same” doesn’t go for the State and Local. That is what subsidarity is all about.

As many have pointed out, it is basically a tax, yes? It is 6% plus the employer’s 6% up to a maximum income. Everyone gets paid out based on the number of years worked and contributions, regardless of need. The rich typically have a longer life expectancy than the poor, so they get paid out longer. So, what you have is a poor person paying 6% of all of their income versus a rich person paying 6% of part of their income (okay…or 12% if they are self-employed). They get paid out accordingly, but the poor person dies earlier, so they are paid out less. Great system! :rolleyes:
Well if one pays into it then the have entitled to it. It is not perfect but in respect it is fair to the point that if you pay you have something when you retire.
However how about a law that says… “if you make this much we are not going to tax your social security” OR “if you make this much you have an option to back out”.
 
I didnt say that the states couldnt. I guess like I said in my post a moment ago I was referring to all levels of government. I apologize for being so general. If I am right Massachusetts single payer system is working?

As long as it helps all people especially the poor and it is affordable to all (free to the most poor and children) BUT equal, I am for it.

I was not joking when I said in that other thread we are the laughing stock of alot of countries. I once had a dinner meeting with a client who is actually from Venuzuela. He had met me down in Houston to look at a manufacturing process. So after a few drinks we got a little open in discussion and of course stupid me I made sure his current President came up. Well you can imagine how that went. I was civil but just not flattering to Chavez becaues I was expressing my concerns.

Long story short. He put me right in my place when he said. "Sure he is consolidating power and personally I believe you have nothing to say what we do down there, you have your own problems. You Americans can not even make sure all your citizens have good healthcare. We Venuzualians have to provide free oil to your countrymen so they can heat their homes.

Not nice of him to say but it is the truth.

You may not like that but you can see the gentleman had a certain point.
No offense, but I don’t really care what your Venezuelan client says. I have also traveled extensively for my job. There is good and bad in every country, but there is still more good here than bad. That’s why people still want to come here…

I am more interested in trying to make positive changes, in line with the Church. If you like the systems in Venezuela or Germany, you are always free to immigrate there. I almost moved to the UK and Japan with my job. I’m glad I didn’t…much more expensive compared to income in both places!
 
As far as Social Security, I understand it is a safety net, but it is going to fail due to lack of funding. It is a poorly thought out system. As Ridgerunner points out, it actually favors the rich. I’m surprised you are in favor of something that favors the rich.
I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they find out, late in the game, that increasing the income upon which Social Security is based (so the “rich” pay their “fair share”) actually reduces the benefit of those who are lower on the scale. That’s because the relationship of the benefit you receive to the maximum is that relationship which you paid relative to the maximum.

Social Security benefits should be “means tested”. If you are a millionaire, (let alone a billionaire) you should not receive it at all. The whole thing was founded on a lie; that lie being that SS is somehow something that was being held “in reserve” for you, like a savings account. The SS tax is just a tax. The benefit bears no relationship to need.
 
Subsidiarity is good in theory, but often lacks justice in practice. It is human nature that when I have “got mine” through my own efforts that I do not want to share it with others. It is that multiplied many fold that becomes the problem with the Church’s notion of subsidiarity.
Maybe so. But if one walks (safer to drive) around in old inner city areas, one marvels at the churches that were built long ago, when people had barely enough to live on. Not only the churches, but the schools, the monasteries and the convents. Magnificent! I am old enough to have been around when the orphanages, the unwed mothers’ homes and so forth were just winking out of existence. I partially worked my way through graduate school working in the last true orphanage in a large city. It was old, but was a very well-appointed place; a real home. It had a chapel as big as some parish churches today. People obviously contributed incredible amounts to those institutions, at a time when they didn’t have all that much to contribute. I’m not sure human nature, per se, is quite as base as we might conclude from looking around us now.

One of the aspects of my occupation is that I have, for many years, examined land titles. In those old records are title summaries and old wills, probates and lawsuits. It absolutely amazes me, sometimes, to see the work that was lavished on some of those old documents…far beyond what was actually necessary to make them functional. Clearly, people had the time and resources to “fancy up” all kinds of things they did, yet made a living doing it all the same. It was plain they did it half for the joy of doing it, and had the time.

I have read old estate documents, and it’s fascinating to see not only how the relative values of certain things have changed, but how seemingly insufficient resource bases were very adequate in times past. Granted, those people did not have Ipods and flat screens to buy. But it’s plain that most lived fairly well. You look at the goods produced at the time, and things of the most lavish materials and craftsmanship were commonplaces. Something as simple as an electric fan made in 1920 will amost certainly run today; more smoothly and quietly and powerfully than something you might now buy at Walmart. Those old objects were built for a lifetime and more, and were unnecessarily aesthetically pleasing. The cheapest old treadle sewing machine you find at an antique store is a thing of art; durable, with good wood and steel and fancifully decorated for no functional reason at all.

But people were poorer then, weren’t they? Perhaps they were. But they also built those magnificent downtown churches and monasteries and convents and schools that are now converted or abandoned altogether.

I have also seen old tax records, and one thing is fairly plain to me. We are massively more taxed now, relative to what we make and what things cost, than was once the case. Granted, our governmental infrastructure now is more extensive. But is it really all that much better?

I remember my grandmother telling me she used to make day trips on the train to shop in a large city nearly 300 miles distant. She left in the early morning, and the train she chose was nonstop. The train station was right downtown in the city, and the way downtowns were concentrated then, you could walk to the major stores without significant difficulty. She would get back home in the early evening. Of course, she was able to nap on the way, have breakfast and dinner as well if she chose. No one but the most intrepid would do something like that by car now, (no passenger trains now) and it would take a lot more time to get it done than it took her. So, are we all that certain that all of the infrastructure we now have is all that essential?

I’m not one of those who think all things older were better. Manifestly many of them were not. But I am inclined to think we have been obliged to work harder and run faster for an end result that is not all that much better, giving due credit to the benefits of much of innovation. And why is that? My particular prejudice is that the governmental take, from the multiple taxes on bubble gum on up the scale, has reached a point that essentially “crowds out” a lot of the charity and local efforts that used to be affordable, both in terms of time and money. Sure, we get tax deductions for charitable donations. But if the government at all levels taxed us 10%, say, instead of 40% or more, we would have more to give to charity, and might not even care whether the donation was deductible or not.

Maybe there is no choice in all this. But I do think people have gotten so used the the idea that everything comes from the top and is directed from the top, that nobody even considers the possibility that many things might work as well or better from the bottom up. Not all, certainly, but many.

I am also old enough to barely remember the old parish “societies” that engaged in charitable work. Very substantial numbers of people contributed their time and resources to those. Those people knew who others were, and who had what happen to them, and who needed what. Those are also largely gone now. I suppose people do not now have the time to spend in that way, or the money. Nor do they know the people in their neighborhoods.

You can talk to retired people who spent their whole lives working in factories. They can often tell you exactly when their companies “speeded up the line”, and it happened a number of times throughout their working lives. Doubtless, corporate greed had something to do with that, and foreign competition. But I suspect government greed also had much to do with it. By the time a kid buys a piece of bubble gum, how many times has that little bit of nothing wrapped in paper been taxed before the kid pops it into his mouth?
 
So how do you respect subsidiarity regarding unemployment and preventing them from suffering?
Well, a couple of points. First of all, “respecting subsidiarity” just means handling unemployment/welfare issues at the right level of government. For example the county or state, versus the nation.

Here is what the Church teaches about the state’s role:

Centesimus annus
The State must contribute to the achievement of these goals both directly and indirectly. **Indirectly and according to the principle of subsidiarity, by creating favourable conditions for the free exercise of economic activity, which will lead to abundant opportunities for employment **and sources of wealth. Directly and according to the principle of solidarity, by defending the weakest, by placing certain limits on the autonomy of the parties who determine working conditions, and by ensuring in every case the necessary minimum support for the unemployed worker.45
Indirectly, favorable conditions can be interpreted a variety of ways, but note that the Church says “free exercise of economic activity.” The idea is to help create conditions condusive to capitalism/entrepreneurship.

Directly means that unemployment insurance programs, which are typically at the state level are a good idea. Now, the limits on autonomy refers to working conditions (e.g. OSHA).
 
Directly means that unemployment insurance programs, which are typically at the state level are a good idea. Now, the limits on autonomy refers to working conditions (e.g. OSHA).
A fair number of federal agencies have state parallels that have the same purposes and do more than do the federal agencies. Most states (perhaps all, for all I know) have agencies similar to EEOC, FEMA and EPA, that handle far more cases than do the federal agencies, have their own rules and regulations and methods of enforcement. With some, like EPA, much of the activity is even more local than the state level. Many counties and most towns have their own environmental laws and regulations and enforce them at a local level. Typically, when that is the case, recourse to the local authority is more efficient.

There is often a good purpose served in having federal coordination (e.g., Homeland Security) but most actual work is done by local authorities. One might properly question whether funding for some coordinated efforts should be done at the federal or more proximate level.
 
I agree, but I consider basic rights a different matter than social welfare programs. The basic rights enumerated in the Constitution are appropriate. I would also, for example, be in favor of a right-to-life Amendment that extends to the unborn.

All those things are different than bureaucratic systems such as welfare programs, Social Security, etc. They are inefficient and would be better if they were closer to the individual, whether private or public.
How then does one fund and administer these programs with equality for all on a local level when the past history of equality seems to have varied greatly with locality? According to Catholic Social Doctrine people have a right to a job, a living wage, the right to organize and form unions, etc. Unfortunately the involvement of higher levels of government while it solves some problems leads to others.
 
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