US Roman Missal Translation Advances [2009-07-20] [Zenit]

[MariaTheresa]

Ok,

Here is what bothers and confuses me about this whole issue-
They changed the word “cup” to the word “chalice” as in Jesus said “this is the chalice of my blood”. I do not think that is what Jesus said. I have never read that in any bible and I think Jesus was known for using 2 cent words whenevr possible instead of 5 cent ones as he spoke so others could understand him. Even his parables used simple concrete everyday images. How can we uderstand the consecration to be valid if the priest is not using the correct words? Because a commitee likes the word chalice better doesn’t make it correct.

 

[JReducation]

Ok,

Here is what bothers and confuses me about this whole issue-
They changed the word “cup” to the word “chalice” as in Jesus said “this is the chalice of my blood”. I do not think that is what Jesus said. I have never read that in any bible and I think Jesus was known for using 2 cent words whenevr possible instead of 5 cent ones as he spoke so others could understand him. Even his parables used simple concrete everyday images. How can we uderstand the consecration to be valid if the priest is not using the correct words? Because a commitee likes the word chalice better doesn’t make it correct.

The Holy Father likes the word chalice, because in the Greek this is the word used. In the Aramaic it uses the word “cup”. But the official Church uses the Greek translation of the scriptures.

Fratenally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Hyacinth_II]

Before everyone goes off half-cocked shooting at our bishops, remember one thing. The English translation is for the entire English speaking world. It must pass the approval of all the bishops’ conferences in the following (excuse me if I miss some)

USA
UK
Ireland
Canada
Virgina Islands
Carribean Islands
India
New Zealand
New Guinea
Australia
South Africa
Liberia
Nigeria
Puerto Rico

After the process is completed by all of the above, then it has to be approved by the Vatican Liturgical Commission and sent back to these conferences. It was the rushing that caused the problem the first time around. Let’s get it as close to right as possible this time.

The Spanish language missal does not have this problem, because there are only three espicopal conferences involved in the translation: Spain, Colombia and Mexico. The other Spanish speaking episcopal conferences agreed to let the CELAM decide for them. CELAM is a continent wide organization of 24 episcopal conferences repersented proportionately.

We don’t have such an organization for the English speaking Catholics of the world. Every English speaking country has to to its own work, if they can afford it, or wait for another country to do it and then approve it for use in their own country. It would be good is we had an international English Speaking Episcopal Conference as do the Latin Americans who have CELAM, besides their national conferences. I was a missionary there for seven years and I saw how much more quickly things move than in the English speaking world. It has to do with the smaller number of people involved in doing the work and making the decisions. The same applies to Poland. How many other countries in the world speak Polish?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you Br. JR…for explaining why it is going to take so long…I was wondering too. I’m ready for the changes. Let’s go. The translation has been too lax for too long…those of us who know the real meaning…from the Latin days (translated in our Missals)…well, we knew the meaning was off a bit… I am so happy to see these changes. I am so happy to see the return to the 3x saying …through my fault… hay…we live in these times when kids and adults too…space out…the 3x saying it is going to catch their attention and make them really think about what they are saying…(or supposed to be saying). It will hopefully make them think about why Jesus had to die for us too. God bless you all.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you Br. JR…for explaining why it is going to take so long…I was wondering too. I’m ready for the changes. Let’s go. The translation has been too lax for too long…those of us who know the real meaning…from the Latin days (translated in our Missals)…well, we knew the meaning was off a bit… I am so happy to see these changes. I am so happy to see the return to the 3x saying …through my fault… hay…we live in these times when kids and adults too…space out…the 3x saying it is going to catch their attention and make them really think about what they are saying…(or supposed to be saying). It will hopefully make them think about why Jesus had to die for us too. God bless you all.

Let’s not chear yet. We have to hope that the Holy Father likes the translation and that he wants to return to some of these former usages. There are rumors that he does not like every return. But I have no idea how true those are. One of the reverts that he allegedly does not like is the tripple “mea culpa”. Again, this is rumor. Let’s wait and see.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Hyacinth_II]

Whew, am I comforted by that!

Consubstantial: Of the same substance, nature, or essence.

So I look at my American Heritage definition and think, oh, Jesus is made of the same stuff as God the Father. Two of them. Wonder how many more there can be. Didn’t say anything about the Holy Spirit, so He must not be the same stuff.

You are a smart person…I went to Catholic grade school during the time the Mass was in Latin. I learned all these Latin words…and it really helped my vocabulary. When I got to public high school I was 3 grades ahead in skills… just because I went to Catholic grade school and because of all the Latin and big words I used because of our religion.

And if you consider all the kids who can’t read well (over 50%), but have been taught to read by breaking the word into smaller words, I don’t know what they’ll make of it. They might get that “con” means “with”. Will they get “substantial”. Then they might mean he’s a substantial part with the Father? Or will they think “sub” means “under”, but don’t know what “stantial” means, so “with under something” ah, Jesus is a little less than the Father.

I guess you and I will have to help them…and teach them more dictionary skills. Then, they will improve and be better…take someone under your wing, kindly.

Maybe they’ll do that other technique and just skip it. Which means the purpose of the creed, to reinforce what we believe, will be lost to the average Catholic. At best, lost to the less educated Catholic.

Well, they may need to skip it for awhile…but, I am sure Father will be explaining what things mean in Mass and we can help each other too.

It will be a little confusing at first. But, it will be OK. I knew the Latin Mass…and by the time I was in college, the Mass went to English and the WHOLE THING…was different…not just a few words. We did it…it can be done.

God bless you.

 

[JReducation]

Hey, if nothing else, we can elevate the level of American education. God knows that it’s in worse crisis than the liturgy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Hyacinth_II]

Hey, if nothing else, we can elevate the level of American education. God knows that it’s in worse crisis than the liturgy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

That’s no joking! LOL…its the truth.

 

[Canto]

In Australia, aside from some feast days specific to OZ, our Bishops have apporved the whole entire thing! We are a smaller country though.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m of the understanding that the translation has been apporved by the Vatican (aside from any changes individual confrences may want to make) and that the Bishops just need to give it the thumbs up.

If the US Bishops don’t hurry it along, it seems the Vatican will go ahead without them, and they will miss out on the opportunity of making any changes they may wish.

Advent 2010 - Here’s hoping

 

[JReducation]

In Australia, aside from some feast days specific to OZ, our Bishops have apporved the whole entire thing! We are a smaller country though.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m of the understanding that the translation has been apporved by the Vatican (aside from any changes individual confrences may want to make) and that the Bishops just need to give it the thumbs up.

If the US Bishops don’t hurry it along, it seems the Vatican will go ahead without them, and they will miss out on the opportunity of making any changes they may wish.

Advent 2010 - Here’s hoping

It’s the other way around. The bishops in the USA are finished with their work. It’s the Holy See that is not done with the review. The proposal is in the hands of the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship. If it passes their scrutiny it goes to the Apostolic See.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

PS. I came back to add, that sometimes these things do not go through the Holy Father. It’s up to him if he wants to review it or if he accepts the word of the Sacred Congregation and just signs it.

 

[Canto]

It’s the other way around. The bishops in the USA are finished with their work. It’s the Holy See that is not done with the review. The proposal is in the hands of the Sacred Congregation of Divine Worship. If it passes their scrutiny it goes to the Apostolic See.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

PS. I came back to add, that sometimes these things do not go through the Holy Father. It’s up to him if he wants to review it or if he accepts the word of the Sacred Congregation and just signs it.

Thanks!

The timetable still does appear to be 2010 which is promising but maybe 2011.

Holy See to Facilitate Expeditious Approval for the Roman Missal
(from the February 2009 Newsletter – © 2009 USCCB)

The Committee on Divine Worship, at its November 2008 meeting, indicated that the USCCB would complete its review and approval of the texts of the third edition of the Roman Missal by the end of 2010, and noted that once the recognitio was issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, publishers would need as much as one year to prepare, publish, and distribute the Roman Missal for use in parishes. On December 15, Francis Cardinal George, O.M.I., USCCB President, received a letter from Antonio Cardinal Cañizares Llovera, Prefect of the Congregation, in which he expressed a desire to facilitate a more expeditious completion of the approval process for the English translation of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, and see the publication of the Roman Missal in English by the end of 2010.

usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/translating_timetable.shtml

 

[JReducation]

Thanks!

The timetable still does appear to be 2010 which is promising but maybe 2011.

Holy See to Facilitate Expeditious Approval for the Roman Missal
(from the February 2009 Newsletter – © 2009 USCCB)

The Committee on Divine Worship, at its November 2008 meeting, indicated that the USCCB would complete its review and approval of the texts of the third edition of the Roman Missal by the end of 2010, and noted that once the recognitio was issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, publishers would need as much as one year to prepare, publish, and distribute the Roman Missal for use in parishes. On December 15, Francis Cardinal George, O.M.I., USCCB President, received a letter from Antonio Cardinal Cañizares Llovera, Prefect of the Congregation, in which he expressed a desire to facilitate a more expeditious completion of the approval process for the English translation of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, and see the publication of the Roman Missal in English by the end of 2010.

usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/translating_timetable.shtml

Advent 2010 is the target. I’ll believe it when I see it. There is the world’s time and there is the Vatican’s time. They don’t always move at the same pace. LOL

We’re still waiting for the new Ordo for the mass and liturgy of the hours and we have not seen it. It should have come out in 2005. In the current ordo we’re still referring to Maximilian Kolbe and several other saints as Blesseds. We have to keep changing the title when we clebrate the liturgy, oh yeah, it’s not Max, wrong Franciscan. It’s Padre Pio. Sowwy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Phemie]

Let’s not chear yet. We have to hope that the Holy Father likes the translation and that he wants to return to some of these former usages. There are rumors that he does not like every return. But I have no idea how true those are. One of the reverts that he allegedly does not like is the tripple “mea culpa”. Again, this is rumor. Let’s wait and see.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

But since the Ordinary of the Mass which includes that triple ‘mea culpa’ has already been approved & promulgated by the Vatican we’re not likely to see it change.