USCCB Committee: ‘All Are Welcome’ Not a Welcome Hymn at Mass

[stpurl]

You mean with ‘oh sons of Adam’s race’ or with the ‘revised’ lyrics?

 

[pnewton]

It has "redeemed of Adam’s race. " It is the use of Creator that the document cautions against.

 

[Jen95]

Julius_Caesar:

I actually have a soft spot for many of such songs.

Me too Julius. I’m afraid I caught the bug young. My parents took me to my first “Folk Mass” at age 4 or 5 because we were traveling by plane and the airport had the only available Sunday Mass and it used guitars. I liked the music and bounced up and down like kids do and my parents were bemused seeing me “dancing” at Mass. I also remember pretending the chair in front of me was a guitar and pretend-strumming along. So of course by the time I was a teen I was strumming at Mass on a real one.

I particularly like “Gather Us In” and “Go Make a Difference”. And all the old late-60s folk mass tunes that no one sings any more.

I have heard many Catholics say the same thing about music at Mass in the same era.
So why don’t we let 5-year-olds choose everything about the liturgy?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So why don’t we let 5-year-olds choose everything about the liturgy?

Not sure what you mean by that comment.
As an adult I attend a wide variety of Masses with a wide variety of music.
The fact that I happen to like some type of music and liked it since I was little doesn’t mean that it’s the only form of Mass music I like, or that it’s always the form I want to hear, or that I hate everything else, or that we should let 5-year-olds choose everything about the liturgy.

So kindly don’t use my anecdote from childhood as some kind of basis for an odd argument that I was not making.

 

[RobertAdams]

why don’t we let 5-year-olds choose everything about the liturgy?

That’s a little over the top and there is room for more than one perspective. For example only allow chant but every third Sunday is cantored by a dinosaur.

 

[Jen95]

Jen95:

why don’t we let 5-year-olds choose everything about the liturgy?

That’s a little over the top and there is room for more than one perspective. For example only allow chant but every third Sunday is cantored by a dinosaur.

He’s already got a guitar!
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[pnewton]

I have heard many Catholics say the same thing about music at Mass in the same era.
So why don’t we let 5-year-olds choose everything about the liturgy?

What an odd statement. How about instead we let local bishops and priests decide what is best? There is no universal best music.

 

[Jen95]

Jen95:

I have heard many Catholics say the same thing about music at Mass in the same era.
So why don’t we let 5-year-olds choose everything about the liturgy?

What an odd statement. How about instead we let local bishops and priests decide what is best? There is no universal best music.

Okay, let’s pretend the Church doesn’t have any teachings about what is the best music for Mass.

 

[pnewton]

Okay, let’s pretend the Church doesn’t have any teachings about what is the best music for Mass.

That has no relationship to what I said. What I said is that the local bishops and priests need to decide what is best for Mass, as opposed to people over the internet that will never darken the door of a parish in another part of the world?

I do not suggest we pretend. I did not say the Church did not have instruction, though I would not use the word “teaching” as it is from the same root as doctrine, and this is a matter of discipline ( in general) and local prudence (in particular). It makes sense to use that word in English, of course, but is a little excessive in some languages.

 

[Jen95]

Jen95:

Okay, let’s pretend the Church doesn’t have any teachings about what is the best music for Mass.

That has no relationship to what I said. What I said is that the local bishops and priests need to decide what is best for Mass, as opposed to people over the internet that will never darken the door of a parish in another part of the world?

I do not suggest we pretend. I did not say the Church did not have instruction, though I would not use the word “teaching” as it is from the same root as doctrine, and this is a matter of discipline ( in general) and local prudence (in particular). It makes sense to use that word in English, of course, but is a little excessive in some languages.

But don’t you think that the Church teaches that Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony are the best music for Mass? Is Church teaching on that ambiguous?

 

[pnewton]

But don’t you think that the Church teaches that Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony are the best music for Mass? Is Church teaching on that ambiguous?

It is clear. The Church said of the first that it is to be given a place of pride, not that it is the best. Polyphony is allowable, as are other hymns. That is not ambiguous, but it is also not precisely defined.

 

[snarflemike]

It is clear. The Church said of the first that it is to be given a place of pride, not that it is the best. Polyphony is allowable, as are other hymns. That is not ambiguous, but it is also not precisely defined.

Not “-a- place of pride”. Pride of place. Other translations say “first place” (the Latin is “principem locum”). And polyphony is not just allowable, it is “especially” allowed. And then there are those comments by recent popes about how chant is the “supreme model” and “permanent standard” of Catholic sacred music. Even Pope Francis last year called chant “the first model”.

 

[pnewton]

And polyphony is not just allowable

Like I said, allowable. That would include particularly allowable, allowable, mandated and all other sorts of things that are allowable. Polyphonic chant is not even feasible everywhere.

In any case, as I said earlier, the diocesan bishop is the authority for implementation of the liturgy, including the music. Subsidiarity serves the Church well, far better that CAF has done, in my opinion, where opinions of people who know nothing of a local parish are pushed on parishes around the world. Even the USCCB did not try and do this. They, like the Church, gave guidelines. Then the bishop adds any additional instructions to his priests, who then implement the liturgy, including the music.

 

[Peeps]

But don’t you think that the Church teaches that Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony are the best music for Mass? Is Church teaching on that ambiguous?

Do you chant (Gregorian)?

Do the men (especially sons, if you are blessed with any) in your life do Gregorian chant?

If you do have sons, do you plan to make sure they are trained from a young age to sing correctly, and trained to chant Gregorian?

How many man in your parish have the ability and knowledge to do Gregorian chant?

Is there a musician in your parish who is knowledgeable about Gregorian chant and able/willing to teach it?

And even though it’s not necessary for Gregorian chant, it’s likely that proficiency in organ is linked with knowledge (and possibly proficiency) in the variety of chant, including Gregorian–so do you have a parish organist who is skilled (capable of playing Bach, Buxtehude, etc., not just hymns)?

If you said yes to most of these question, then it is likely that you are enjoying Gregorian chant regularly in your parish. Be thankful!

Other Catholics and Christians can’t even answer one of these questions with a yes–like it or not, “no” answers to these questions make it unlikely that Gregorian chant will be done (unless a group is hired) in a parish. You have to have the tools, mainly knowedgeable people who are willing to put in a lot of time.

It doesn’t really matter what the Church teaches if the people are not trained and available.

And it’s really easy for women to opine over the lack of Gregorian chant in Mass-if Gregorian chant could be done by women, we would probably get it done (sorry men!). But this is the task of men–and there simply aren’t enough of them anywhere in the U.S. who have been trained to sing correctly, and have the training in Gregorian chant, and who are capable of TEACHING other boys and men Gregorian chant. I know of one small group of men in my city who chant at our Latin Mass parish–they are very good to hear, but I don’t know if they are knowledgeable about Gregorian chant. I tend to think not.

So…what I’m saying here is that there are reasons why you don’t hear Gregorian chant in the OF Masses, and it’s not because someone is deliberately ignoring it and selecting hymns that are suitable mainly for 5-year olds (although I would say that most five year-olds are not capable of interpreting some of the poetry in the “modern” hymns–even adults don’t understand concepts like those in hymns like “Lord of the Dance”).

I hope this comment is helpful to you–perhaps it will even inspire you to rally and encourage all the men in your life to learn how to sing correctly and to study Gregorian chant!

 

[Jen95]

It is the pastors’ and bishops’ job to make decisions about the liturgy. When they allow, or instruct, their music directors to use non-liturgical music, that is all that the parish knows or is exposed to. In case you haven’t noticed, our Church is hierarchical. It’s not a democracy. I could play the organ, learn Gregorian chant ten hours a day, and that doesn’t mean that I would be playing / chanting at a local parish. Because there is already someone there, placed there by the pastor, who (generally) is programming non-liturgical pop style songs that are not actual Catholic liturgical music.

 

[Jen95]

Jen95:

But don’t you think that the Church teaches that Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony are the best music for Mass? Is Church teaching on that ambiguous?

It is clear. The Church said of the first that it is to be given a place of pride, not that it is the best. Polyphony is allowable, as are other hymns. That is not ambiguous, but it is also not precisely defined.

Oh yes. “Pride of place”. That’s obviously code for “never use it”.

 

[Jen95]

Archbishop Sample is going about it:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...r-music-aim-high-archbishop-sample-says-14995

 

[LordofByz]

To say goodbye to these hymns, turn your hymnal to #1970 something, Scatter Us Out.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

That has no relationship to what I said. What I said is that the local bishops and priests need to decide what is best for Mass, as opposed to people over the internet that will never darken the door of a parish in another part of the world?

I do not suggest we pretend. I did not say the Church did not have instruction, though I would not use the word “teaching” as it is from the same root as doctrine, and this is a matter of discipline ( in general) and local prudence (in particular). It makes sense to use that word in English, of course, but is a little excessive in some languages.

This is precisely correct.