USCCB Condemns Separating Immigrant Children from Families

[Pup7]

If these “non-dogmatic” preachings are to have any import, it should be our purpose to listen to them. That is why I think we have a purpose in listening to our bishops when they issue the statement they did.

Again - I hope you always unquestioningly agree with every clergy member on everything.

I disagree with the stance on illegal immigration. I will always disagree with this particular view. I’ve navigated the system. I’ve dealt with the aggravation. I have the t-shirt.

I agree with teachings on immigration. I don’t agree with opinions on how illegal immigration should be disregarded, I don’t agree with relaxing the borders (they’re pretty lax already compared with most of the West). I am actually sorry that there is so much strife for everyone involved (and clearly also those not involved), but when you break a law you take your chances.

Do it legally, and don’t lie about intent or situation.

 

[Augustinian]

Sorry, but I stopped thinking of her a year and a half ago. I will never understand the conservative obsession with her.

She hasn’t disappeared, and has spent the last 18 months whining and blaming everyone else for her getting vanquished.

Tough not to pay attention, but I’m not obsessed.

What I’m saying is the whole reason why anyone is talking about this border issue is due to the fact that Trump won, and his liberal adversaries think they can use the issue to force him out of office. It has nothing to do with the “children” for the liberal politicians.

 

[pnewton]

Who is going to openly admit to being a pimp or a pusher to immigration officials? This requires investigation, and investigation takes time.

I guess the alternative is just to take their word for it, and admit them for the months to determine the facts

We have a device in this generation that keeps track of all sorts of information. Law enforcement use this device all the time and it will deliver this information in seconds. It is called a computer, and provide an alternative to some sort of in depth investigation involving months and simply taking some one’s word. This is why your post is called a false dichotomy.

ICE can know if someone has an history of crime, or has attempted entry or been deported in seconds. Their response time to us is usually an hour.

 

[PetraG]

Where has the US terminated parental rights?

Separating doesn’t equal rights termination.

Oh, really? So why does someone accused of a misdemeanor or a civil violation automatically lose custody and visitation rights? What do you call that? You can’t define your way out of the situation where a child is taken to Heaven-only-knows-where and whom the government refuses to return.

Hmmm, availability of facilities, funding, proper supervision?
This isn’t a random process.

It sure looks like a random process. When the process isn’t random, then when you can’t achieve the process in a way that is moral, you don’t get to do it until you figure out how to do it right.

Can you cite a source proving the US has actually and legally terminated rights?

No, that is why the federal judge told them they had to quit doing it! They were terminating rights without the legal right to do it!!

And how do you sort through every story presented? You can’t. Trust but verify. And you come here illegally and the US is well within its rights to verify.

No one has ever said the US has to believe every immigration story at face value. No one.

 

[Pup7]

We have a device in this generation that keeps track of all sorts of information. Law enforcement use this device all the time and it will deliver this information in seconds. It is called a computer, and provide an alternative to some sort of in depth investigation involving months and simply taking some one’s word. This is why your post is called a false dichotomy.

ICE can know if someone has an history of crime, or has attempted entry or been deported in seconds. Their response time to us is usually an hour

Excuse me.

Again, you have no clue about how this works.

No, that’s not how it works, for the record.

If someone DOESN’T have a paper trail, they can’t be verified.

How are you going to verify someone with no documentation? LOL you can’t. It takes hours for a US citizen to be verified when they present at the border with no documentation - say, their passport was stolen.

You watch too much television. DNA isn’t processed in a few days, rape kits don’t come back in 48 hours, and your identity isn’t verified in a few minutes - especially if you have no documentation.

 

[pnewton]

What I’m saying is the whole reason why anyone is talking about this border issue is due to the fact that Trump won, and his liberal adversaries

Do you really think the opposition to the President is “liberal adversaries”, or that every bishop in the country and the Pope are liberals? I know that Trump is treated unfairly by some that hate him, call them liberals if you want. But this issue has garnered broad opposition from everywhere.

 

[pnewton]

How many have you deported, or checked or held for ICE? I have worked to deport thousands over the years. My last one was this weekend.

How are you going to verify someone with no documentation? LOL you can’t

LOL. You can, most of the time.

Remember what was asked was how to check if one is a pimp, a drug smuggler or some other problem.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

If these “non-dogmatic” preachings are to have any import, it should be our purpose to listen to them. That is why I think we have a purpose in listening to our bishops when they issue the statement they did.

Again - I hope you always unquestioningly agree with every clergy member on everything.

I disagree with the stance on illegal immigration. I will always disagree with this particular view. I’ve navigated the system. I’ve dealt with the aggravation. I have the t-shirt.

I agree with teachings on immigration. I don’t agree with opinions on how illegal immigration should be disregarded, I don’t agree with relaxing the borders (they’re pretty lax already compared with most of the West). I am actually sorry that there is so much strife for everyone involved (and clearly also those not involved), but when you break a law you take your chances.

Do it legally, and don’t lie about intent or situation.

I think you are exaggerating the US Bishops’ position on illegal immigration. They do not call for open borders. They do not call for illegal border crossers to be treated exactly the same as those who apply legally. They do not call for relaxing the border. The only reason this current statement was issue by the Bishops was over the issue of family separation. How we deal with the issue of illegal immigrants overall is up to us. But taking away children from their parents should not be a tool in the toolbox to deter future crossings. Do you disagree with the bishops on that one specific issue?

 

[Augustinian]

Do you really think the opposition to the President is “liberal adversaries”

Basically, yes.

If President Trump and the Republicans were to leave office this evening, tomorrow this whole thing would be forgotten by daybreak tomorrow.

The reason the media brought it forward in the first place was to get rid of Trump, and they will stay with it until it succeeds or they find something else to try.

A couple weeks ago, they were using the “Stormy Daniels” incident to try and get the President out of there. Now, a lot of people probably forgot about old Stormy.

 

[Pup7]

How many have you deported, or checked or held for ICE? I have worked to deport thousands over the years. My last one was this weekend.

Pup7:

How are you going to verify someone with no documentation? LOL you can’t

LOL. You can, most of the time.

Remember what was asked was how to check if one is a pimp, a drug smuggler or some other problem.

Right. Because none of the people at the border lie, or have had fake IDs, or are conservative with the truth.

I’m sure the process is 100% straightforward.

I don’t doubt what you do, but somehow I think you’re generalizing.

I also know for a fact it takes longer than a few minutes to verify someone’s identity, or I guess the people I know who have had to be detained at the border for verification pending loss of paperwork are lying, as are the people I’ve worked with at Border Patrol.

It takes longer than that to get back on a military installation without proper ID - say, you do the silly thing I did the other day and drive off base without your wallet. I live and work on the base. Took more than a few minutes to get back on, and rightfully so.

I’m not talking about a criminal records check. I’m talking about identity, who the person is, and are they whom they claim to be.

 

[pnewton]

I also know for a fact it takes longer than a few minutes to verify someone’s identity,

Prints take 15-20 minutes, for example. Anyone handled is printed, and have been for quite a while now. It may be that detention at the border, or elsewhere is unable to take advantage of this database. You are right that I cannot generalize from how those arrested by other agencies, versus those detained on entry only. There may be some issue I do not know. But it can be done.

Took more than a few minutes to get back on, and rightfully so.

But it did not take months. Realize that even under current court rulings children can be kept with parents up to 20 days.

 

[PetraG]

If President Trump and the Republicans were to leave office this evening, tomorrow this whole thing would be forgotten by daybreak tomorrow.

Not true. Strangers No Longer was published in 2003, when George Bush was the President. Maybe a lot of Catholics were oblivious, but this is NOT a new topic!
“In January 2003, the U.S. and Mexican Catholic bishops issued the pastoral document, Strangers No Longer: Together on the Journey of Hope, and the bishops of both countries called for a “globalization of solidarity” and an overhaul of the U.S. immigration system.”

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...no-longer-together-on-the-journey-of-hope.cfm
That document, in turn, was in response to Pope John Paul II’s exhortation, Ecclesia in America, which was delivered in 1999, when Bill Clinton was President:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...f_jp-ii_exh_22011999_ecclesia-in-america.html

This is an excerpt from the 1999 document from Pope St. John Paul II:
from The question of immigrants
Church communities will not fail to see in this phenomenon a specific call to live an evangelical fraternity and at the same time a summons to strengthen their own religious spirit with a view to a more penetrating evangelization. With this in mind, the Synod Fathers recalled that “the Church in America must be a vigilant advocate, defending against any unjust restriction the natural right of individual persons to move freely within their own nation and from one nation to another. Attention must be called to the rights of migrants and their families and to respect for their human dignity, even in cases of non-legal immigration”. (236)

Migrants should be met with a hospitable and welcoming attitude which can encourage them to become part of the Church’s life, always with due regard for their freedom and their specific cultural identity. Cooperation between the dioceses from which they come and those in which they settle, also through specific pastoral structures provided for in the legislation and praxis of the Church, (237) has proved extremely beneficial to this end. In this way the most adequate and complete pastoral care possible can be ensured. The Church in America must be constantly concerned to provide for the effective evangelization of those recent arrivals who do not yet know Christ. (238)

Again: The Popes have had this on their radar since about 1914.

 

[PetraG]

It takes longer than that to get back on a military installation without proper ID - say, you do the silly thing I did the other day and drive off base without your wallet. I live and work on the base. Took more than a few minutes to get back on, and rightfully so.

Who is fleeing onto a military base for asylum? How many many families are separated when Dad doesn’t have his paperwork with him?

 

[Pup7]

Who is fleeing onto a military base for asylum? How many many families are separated when Dad doesn’t have his paperwork with him?

That wasn’t my point, was it?

I said it takes longer than a few minutes to establish identity. I live and work here and can be verified by DEERS in about five minutes or less, but it took me over half an hour to get back on base when I stupidly left my wallet at home this weekend. The front gate doesn’t check DEERS (which is our eligibility for benefits system); they check other sources to be sure that I was whom I said I was. It took over half an hour, not a few minutes - and that was just to get on a base, not reenter the country.

But to comment on your unrelated question, it should take a lot longer to establish who someone is for the purposes of asylum than it should for me to get access to my home. A LOT longer.

Please reread the post.

And yes, at the border, should you present with a kid and no documentation (and I’m assuming US citizenship here), I bet bucks to donuts they may very well separate you to ensure you’re not trying to leave the country with the child as part of a custody dispute.

Ironically enough, they actually are placing some of these kids on military installations in the US - which will be interesting as I wonder how they’ll provide for security for the installation and its inhabitants.

 

[Pup7]

“In January 2003, the U.S. and Mexican Catholic bishops issued the pastoral document, Strangers No Longer: Together on the Journey of Hope, and the bishops of both countries called for a “globalization of solidarity” and an overhaul of the U.S. immigration system.”

This phrase always makes me wonder.

Overhaul to benefit whom, and why? What about the system needs overhauling - and I’m not talking about current events, I’m talking about the system itself: application and requirements for admission.

We are one of the easiest nations to immigrate to, current backlog notwithstanding. That’s an overwhelmed system and not the fault of the system itself.

Overhaul the system for what reasons? I’m serious.

 

[blackforest]

Common sense dictates that it’s a lot costlier to take children away from their parents, detain them separately, and put them into foster care. So yea, I agree that tax money shouldn’t be wasted so frivolously on that venture.

Tax money on border patrol as a whole is inevitable, however, (unless you believe in “open borders”), and hardly some oppressive force that places citizens in “the back seat.”

 

[Pup7]

Tax money on border patrol as a whole is inevitable, however, (unless you believe in “open borders”), and hardly some oppressive force that places citizens in “the back seat.”

I never said CBP puts us in the back seat.

A chunk of the public does, or seems to by their attitude (and it’s ironic in a way), but not CBP. Why on earth would I think that?

I think CBP is underfunded and undermanned (actually I know they’re undermanned) and should have more money to work with than what they do. Not sure why you thought I think they’re oppressive. I’ve worked with them - they’re anything but.

 

[PetraG]

This phrase always makes me wonder.

Overhaul to benefit whom, and why? What about the system needs overhauling - and I’m not talking about current events, I’m talking about the system itself: application and requirements for admission.

We are one of the easiest nations to immigrate to, current backlog notwithstanding. That’s an overwhelmed system and not the fault of the system itself.

Overhaul the system for what reasons? I’m serious.

I couldn’t include all the Holy Father said about immigration, due to space restrictions:
In its history, America has experienced many immigrations, as waves of men and women came to its various regions in the hope of a better future. The phenomenon continues even today, especially with many people and families from Latin American countries who have moved to the northern parts of the continent, to the point where in some cases they constitute a substantial part of the population. They often bring with them a cultural and religious heritage which is rich in Christian elements. The Church is well aware of the problems created by this situation and is committed to spare no effort in developing her own pastoral strategy among these immigrant people, in order to help them settle in their new land and to foster a welcoming attitude among the local population, in the belief that a mutual openness will bring enrichment to all.

Generally speaking, the goal of the bishops of the Americas is twofold: a) improvement of nations whose political and political structures might drive people from their homelands who would otherwise never leave but would rather be reliable neighbors of countries that are now stable and prosperous and b) elimination of xenophobia and suspicion towards immigrants, people whom history has taught are usually great additions to their new country, deserving of none of the dire warnings against their acceptance. The heavy disparity between wealth and poverty that now exists between nations in the Americas drives immigration in ways that benefit neither the nations from which people migrate nor the nations receiving immigrants beyond the capacity of even generous hospitality.

I totally agree that in light of the court’s decisions outlining how people apprehended on possible immigration violations can be treated, we urgently need a national debate and a legislative response. Even though some very important considerations must take a back seat to respect for human rights and just plain decency in the treatment of children, that doesn’t mean that protocols that serve both to respect human rights and also more effectively give nations control over their borders aren’t ultimately the necessary goal AND therefore an urgent one.

I’d say it is a matter of what is urgent vs what is important. Both sovereignty over borders and keeping families together are important, but when one has to give it is the human rights that are more urgent and get the priority until a solution that can achieve both ends can be implemented. The primacy of human rights does not mean that there is no urgency to finding the broader solution, though.

 

[blackforest]

A chunk of the public does, or seems to by their attitude (and it’s ironic in a way), but not CBP. Why on earth would I think that?

Because Petra pointed out that we had a moral imperative to keep families together, and you replied in Post 705:

So is protecting the interests of a nation’s citizens and legal residents. Why does that always take a back seat?

If that was unrelated to her point about keeping families together, then it’s irrelevant and need not be posted. If it was related and in response to her argument to avoid separation, then it puts up a false dichotomy between keeping families together and protecting the interests of citizens.

 

[Theo520]

It hasn’t stopped, ICE is still taking children away from their asylum seeking parents.

More children torn from arms of asylum seeking parents World News

These parents must be released immediately, to keep parenting. Release them NOW, before their children are traumatized for life!.

We need to ban ICE now!