- Status
M
martininthefiel
Guest
Good!
J
Jaypeeto4
Guest
Hmmmm. In my church, the altar candles, though they LOOK real,
are not real wax candles.
They are white hard plastic sheaths. At the top of the sheath
is some kind of little vessel filled with fuel, in which a wick is placed.
A glass cup is placed over that, and the flame (an actual flame)
burns during the entire Mass, after which Father or an altar server
extinguishes them.
Should they no longer use these?
Our parish is poor (the parishoners mostly aren’t poor, which is proven by all their gorgeous late-model, top of the line new cars and SUVs) but the average offering weekly is about $3 or $4. That is the “average” offering. As the collectors have noted, most individuals put a mere dollar bill in the plate), and the cost of 51% or more beeswax candles made for liturgical use would, I think, be very high considering my parish’s limited resources (again, because
the average weekly offering is so, well, frankly, CHINTZY.)
What should I tell my pastor about this rule?
God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
are not real wax candles.
They are white hard plastic sheaths. At the top of the sheath
is some kind of little vessel filled with fuel, in which a wick is placed.
A glass cup is placed over that, and the flame (an actual flame)
burns during the entire Mass, after which Father or an altar server
extinguishes them.
Should they no longer use these?
Our parish is poor (the parishoners mostly aren’t poor, which is proven by all their gorgeous late-model, top of the line new cars and SUVs) but the average offering weekly is about $3 or $4. That is the “average” offering. As the collectors have noted, most individuals put a mere dollar bill in the plate), and the cost of 51% or more beeswax candles made for liturgical use would, I think, be very high considering my parish’s limited resources (again, because
the average weekly offering is so, well, frankly, CHINTZY.)
What should I tell my pastor about this rule?
God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
K
Kielbasi
Guest
What will this do to fire insurance premiums, particularly in frame constructed churches?
Church buildings in general seem to be higher risks to start with as far as fire, they are empty much of the time and often rely on volunteer help instead of professionals to do the handy work around. Many, many churches have burned in Pittsburgh during its history, and not just Catholic ones, more so than other kinds of buildings.
Insisting on real candles would seem (and I’m not an actuary) to increase the chance of a claim.
Church buildings in general seem to be higher risks to start with as far as fire, they are empty much of the time and often rely on volunteer help instead of professionals to do the handy work around. Many, many churches have burned in Pittsburgh during its history, and not just Catholic ones, more so than other kinds of buildings.
Insisting on real candles would seem (and I’m not an actuary) to increase the chance of a claim.
J
Jaypeeto4
Guest
I don’t know about how DANGEROUS real candles are.
If proper precautions are taken, that shouldn’t be a threat.
Here in South Florida, the GORGEOUS Gesu Church
in Downtown Miami uses real candles on the altar and on devotional candle
tables in the back of the church, and there’s never been a problem.
Of course, GESU is not primarily a wooden building, but concrete and marble
with SOME wood (like the confessionals, etc).
But Gesu does just fine with real candles burning there all day long.
By the way,if any of you are ever in Miami, Florida,
BE SURE to pay a visit to Gesu. It is located 2 blocks north of Flagler Street
on Northeast 1st Avenue. It is a beautiful, beautiful , historic Jesuit-run Church,
and an official Miami Landmark.
Love,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
If proper precautions are taken, that shouldn’t be a threat.
Here in South Florida, the GORGEOUS Gesu Church
in Downtown Miami uses real candles on the altar and on devotional candle
tables in the back of the church, and there’s never been a problem.
Of course, GESU is not primarily a wooden building, but concrete and marble
with SOME wood (like the confessionals, etc).
But Gesu does just fine with real candles burning there all day long.
By the way,if any of you are ever in Miami, Florida,
BE SURE to pay a visit to Gesu. It is located 2 blocks north of Flagler Street
on Northeast 1st Avenue. It is a beautiful, beautiful , historic Jesuit-run Church,
and an official Miami Landmark.
Love,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
M
martininthefiel
Guest
My understanding is that the largest single cause of Church fires is organ blower boxes, not candles. The charcoal used to fire thuribles is much more dangerous than candles. The oil candles are probably more dangerous than wax, because of the possibility of spillage.
Anyway, the honey aroma of beeswax is delightful. They’re just expensive.
Anyway, the honey aroma of beeswax is delightful. They’re just expensive.
Y
YoungTradCath
Guest
I imagine that since candles are generally lit only when a liturgical action is taking place, in which at least several people are generally present, candles do not pose even a moderate risk, because those people who are present can usually quickly extinguish the fire if one is started.
J
JReducation
Guest
Here is where the rubber meets the road. Most Catholics are quick to remember that the USCCB cannot dictate to bishops, when the USCCB says something that they don’t like. I have also seen many threads on CAF where many Catholics have accused the USCCB of everything for being thieves to heretics. But when a statement like this comes out, all of a sudden it’s treated as if it were the fifth Gospel.
For the sake of intellectual honesty, let’s clarify some points.
a. The Conference of Bishops of any country has the authority to make liturgical policies through consensus. The committees for Divine Worship are not the Conference. They are advisory. They write with the purpose of helping the bishops make policies in their respective dioceses. Just look at the revision of the Roman Missal. It was not a committee that voted on the final translation. Committees worked on it. But the bishops had to cast their vote in order to make it binding. No single committee unilaterally handed down the revisions.
b. Religious orders that enjoy the Right of Exemption granted to them by the Council of Trent are not bound by the Conferences of Bishops of any nation. They answer only to the Holy Father. In their chapels and Churches, the major superior makes policies, except in those chapels and churches that are under the supervision of the diocese, even though they may be staffed by orders. In that case, the orders follow diocesan policy in anything that pertains only to that chapel or church that they administer in the name of the diocese.
c. This document does not say that it was agreed upon by the Conference of Bishops. If you read it carefully, it refers to the Secretariat of the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy, not to the body of US bishops. The Secretariat, like the Diocesan Office for Divine Worship or whatever it may be called in your diocese, can only hand down as law that which is approved by those who employ them. In the case of this office, that would be the bishops as one body. It does not tell us that the bishops discussed this and voted on it.
d. Even when the bishops all agree on something and agree to implement it across the country, it is not a law. It’s a gentleman’s agreement. At the end of the day, the local bishop and the male religious superiors choose to enforce it in their respective jurisdictions. Then, it’s law.
Therefore, go with the local authority and don’t worry about it. It is the bishop’s or the male religious superior’s job to determine what the practice will be and they alone bear the responsibility for answering for it. This is not an area where other clergy, religious or lay faithful have any jurisdiction. If you don’t have jurisdiction, then you are not morally accountable for that which you do not control.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
J
JGMendes4049
Guest
However, Brother, this is not a promulgation of anything new. The Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments has given the episcopal conference the faculty to determine if material other than wax may be used in candles (except the sanctuary lamp, which must be oil or wax). This isn’t anything new. It’s merely the Secretariat noting that the USCCB has never exercised that faculty.
C
Chatter163
Guest
That is what is meant by oil-burning candles.
J
JReducation
Guest
I understand this. But what everyone needs to understand is that bishops and male religious superiors are Ordinaries. Unless the statement is a universal law to be followed by everyone, the bishops and the male religious superiors have the same faculties as the Conference. A bishops conference never has authority over individual Ordinaries. Individual Ordinaries are always either the Diocesan Bishop, not the auxiliaries and male religious superiors.
When you get law from the Holy See that says the candles must be this way and does not leave room for the conferences to rule on this, then everyone must tow the line. As long as that option is open to the conference, it is open to any bishop in the conference and to all male superiors. Only female superior are found to the rule as it stand, because they are not Ordinaries. They have to go withe the bishop or their male superior, if they have one.
In this case, the CDW leaves room for the conference to make changes. Our conference has never agreed to make this a law for the USA. We only have a specific department handing down what they have received. From there, either the conference jointly decides or the individual ordinaries can decide for themselves.
It’s always important to remember that even when the conference decides, individual ordinaries can opt out at any time. The conference has no authority over bishops and superiors. They can agree to something today and pull out tomorrow. Eveyrone is bound to whatever the Vatican says must be done or may not be done without exception.
That’s why I say, go with the local bishop, if you belong to a diocesan parish or with the local religious superior, if your parish is run by a religious order. Those are the highest ranking authorities in your parish.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
M
Matthew_Holford
Guest
Brother
I am now confused. I know that some ordinaries (diocesan bishops, those equivalent in law to diocesan bishops, and major superiors) have greater jurisdiction than many people often realise. However, I thought episcopal conferences did have certain legislative powers in some circumstances. If I understand you correctly, are you saying that all decisions of episcopal conferences, even the plenary sessions, have no binding powers on any matter? Or, were you saying they had no jurisdiction in this matter.
Matt
J
JReducation
Guest
About a year or two ago, Pope Benedict issued a clarification. The conferences of bishops do not have authority over any Ordinary.Brother
I am now confused. I know that some ordinaries (diocesan bishops, those equivalent in law to diocesan bishops, and major superiors) have greater jurisdiction than many people often realise. However, I thought episcopal conferences did have certain legislative powers in some circumstances. If I understand you correctly, are you saying that all decisions of episcopal conferences, even the plenary sessions, have no binding powers on any matter? Or, were you saying they had no jurisdiction in this matter.
Matt
However, Ordinaries, come together as Conferences and they can make laws to their jurisdiction. For those decisions to become law, they must be approved by the Holy See. The Holy See is bigger than the pope. This means that the agreement must be approved by any of the Sacred Congregations of the Holy See, because they speak for the pope.
For example, take the rules in the revision of the Liturgy. The revision was made by committees. These committees submitted their work to ICEL. Then ICEL tweaked it and produced the translation.
The translation was sent back to the bishops conferences of the affected countries. The conferences voted to make this the rule for the Roman Missal in their jurisdiction. Then, their decision had to be sent to the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship who gave it the final approval. In fact, the Holy Father had nothing to do with it. He does not get involved in such things. He has more important matters to do deal with that affect the world and the entire Church.
The Sacred Congregation reviews and approves. They simply send their suggestion to the pope for him to sign. Rarely does he ever see what he is signing. That’s Msgr. Giorg’s job to make sure that he is not bothered too much.
When that document returns, with the signature from the Holy Father and the Prefect for Divine Worship, the it becomes law for those conferences. Unless it has those signatures, it’s not binding on any bishop or male superior.
For example, CITH, conferences of bishops have voted to use it. Later, individual bishops have suspended its use in their dioceses and individual male superiors have stopped its use in their chapels and institutions. That’s because it was never made a law that bound the bishops. It was an agreement to allow it. Had the CDW signed off on it, then it would have become the law of the land.
The GIRM must always be approved by the CDW. If this ruling on candles goes into the GIRM, then it becomes law. Even though the GIRM is agreed upon by the conference, it is ratified by the Holy See. The Holy See has authority over Ordinaries.
Bishops and male superiors have the freedom to deviate from the conference, as long as the decisions of the conference are not law. They can only become law when the law is authorized by a higher authority.
The reason for this is that bishops and male superiors are equals. An equal cannot mandate to another equal. Our system is not democratic. The rule of law has nothing to do with votes, but with rank. Certain individuals and certain bodies rank higher than others.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
meltzerboy
New member
This is also an issue in Judaism in the celebration of Hanukkah. It is the general consensus that imitation candles are not allowed, such as the popular electric menorahs, since the holiday revolves around the miracle of the oil which lasted eight days. Incidentally, that is also why oily foods (such as potato pancakes) are consumed during this festival.
J
JReducation
Guest
But in Judaism, this is law. We observe this law around the world. In my own family, we always use candles, never the electric lights. They’re ugly too.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
C
centurionguard
Guest
They use the same kind of fake candles in my parish. Most real high quality Bees-wax candles for Benediction are 66.5% Bees-Wax and 33.5% Paraffin. The fake plastic cylindrical candles being used and seen in numerous Catholic Churches as Altar candles are used primarily for two reasons.
Cost factor when compared to very expensive rolled beeswax candles and secondly High Commercial Insurance rates on all Churches. Fire insurance regulations alone are very high and Commercial insurance companies are extremely particular about open flames on votive candles even if their claimed to be said safe.
J
JGMendes4049
Guest
But if the local ordinary hasn’t said anything, isn’t the consensus of the episcopal conference to be followed?
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
No.
The episcopal conference is only binding when they vote unanimously on something or they vote for something with a majority vote that is later ratified by Rome.
If a bishop does not speak on a matter publicly that does not mean that he has not spoken to his presbyters on the matter. If he allows for something to be done then I think it is safe to say that he has spoken on it.
W
wayman
Guest
It says on the USCCB website that the Congregation for Divine Worship told the U.S. Conference of Bishops that they don’t have the authority to decide what materials can be used and that fake candles are not allowed. This is coming from the Vatican, and it is not up to anyone else.
J
JReducation
Guest
It’s the conference, not the Ordinary, who does not have the authority to decide. It places no limits on the Ordinaries. The CDW has never issued a statement regarding what the Ordinaries can and cannot do in this area.
When they want to include the Ordinaries, they are very precise. For example, when they say that no priest may add or delete from the parts of the mass, except those that have options, this is very specific. The Ordinaries cannot authorize any priest to add or delete what is not allowed, because the statement says no priest.
The Vatican does not like the meddle too much with bishops and male religious superiors. I understand how the lay faithful would like them to do so, but there are protocols that only the Holy Father can override. They are in place to protect bishops and religious men from being abused as was the case in the past. They were often manipulated and abused by the curia, the aristocracy and by monarchs.
Today, the different congregations avoid dictating to bishops and male superiors as much as possible, unless they know that the Holy Father is going to back them up. If they are not sure, they won’t do it. What has happened in the past is that a congregation has dictated to either a bishop or a male religious superior, the individual has appealed and the Holy Father has slapped the congregation on the wrist.
The Holy Father has a dual gubernatorial role. He is the highest authority and the protector of bishops and institutes of pontifical right. If you don’t see a statement that says that no priest or no bishop can change this or that, then it’s open for the superiors and bishops to make the final call.
There is a rule that you can only use a real flame on the altar. This is actually in the instructions. The question of whether that flame is produced by a candle or an oil lamp is not clear in universal law. It’s only mentioned in speaking about what the conference can and cannot do, not what individual Ordinaries can or cannot do.
The fake candles that I’m thinking about are really oil lamps inside of a cylinder that looks like a candle with a brass top. You folks are talking about the oil canisters, right not the electric lights?
I don’t foresee the CDW limiting the bishops on this one, because of what people have mentioned. In some places either the fire department or the insurance company has all kinds of rules about these things. This often means that you pay fines or more premiums that many parishes cannot afford. The CDW is sympathetic to these problems. While it may not want to give a blanket endorsement to non wax candles, it may come very close to prohibiting it, without doing so, just leaving enough ambiguity in the rules to allow the Ordinaries to fill in the gaps. They often have to do this, because of the differences in civil law from one country to the next or even within the same country when it’s as large as the USA, Brazil, Canada or Mexico where they have federal laws, state laws and county ordinances.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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