USCCB Says Fake Candles Not Allowed

[wayman]

It’s the conference, not the Ordinary, who does not have the authority to decide. It places no limits on the Ordinaries. The CDW has never issued a statement regarding what the Ordinaries can and cannot do in this area.

When they want to include the Ordinaries, they are very precise. For example, when they say that no priest may add or delete from the parts of the mass, except those that have options, this is very specific. The Ordinaries cannot authorize any priest to add or delete what is not allowed, because the statement says no priest.

The Vatican does not like the meddle too much with bishops and male religious superiors. I understand how the lay faithful would like them to do so, but there are protocols that only the Holy Father can override. They are in place to protect bishops and religious men from being abused as was the case in the past. They were often manipulated and abused by the curia, the aristocracy and by monarchs.

Today, the different congregations avoid dictating to bishops and male superiors as much as possible, unless they know that the Holy Father is going to back them up. If they are not sure, they won’t do it. What has happened in the past is that a congregation has dictated to either a bishop or a male religious superior, the individual has appealed and the Holy Father has slapped the congregation on the wrist.

The Holy Father has a dual gubernatorial role. He is the highest authority and the protector of bishops and institutes of pontifical right. If you don’t see a statement that says that no priest or no bishop can change this or that, then it’s open for the superiors and bishops to make the final call.

There is a rule that you can only use a real flame on the altar. This is actually in the instructions. The question of whether that flame is produced by a candle or an oil lamp is not clear in universal law. It’s only mentioned in speaking about what the conference can and cannot do, not what individual Ordinaries can or cannot do.

The fake candles that I’m thinking about are really oil lamps inside of a cylinder that looks like a candle with a brass top. You folks are talking about the oil canisters, right not the electric lights?

I don’t foresee the CDW limiting the bishops on this one, because of what people have mentioned. In some places either the fire department or the insurance company has all kinds of rules about these things. This often means that you pay fines or more premiums that many parishes cannot afford. The CDW is sympathetic to these problems. While it may not want to give a blanket endorsement to non wax candles, it may come very close to prohibiting it, without doing so, just leaving enough ambiguity in the rules to allow the Ordinaries to fill in the gaps. They often have to do this, because of the differences in civil law from one country to the next or even within the same country when it’s as large as the USA, Brazil, Canada or Mexico where they have federal laws, state laws and county ordinances.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

If what you say is true the statement on the USCCB website would be pointless for them to make. I think you should read the quote that I posted in the first post again. Nowhere does it suggest that there is any exception. If what you mean by “Ordinary” is the local parish priest, last time I checked they don’t have authority over the USCCB or the Vatican.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If what you say is true the statement on the USCCB website would be pointless for them to make. I think you should read the quote that I posted in the first post again. Nowhere does it suggest that there is any exception. If what you mean by “Ordinary” is the local parish priest, last time I checked they don’t have authority over the USCCB or the Vatican.

Only bishops and male religious superiors are ordinaries.

As I stated, the USCCB has no authority over any bishop unless the Vatican says they do. In this case your quote says that the USCCB has no authority in this matter but it says nothing about the ordinary, which, again, is the bishops and male religious superiors.

 

[wayman]

Only bishops and male religious superiors are ordinaries.

As I stated, the USCCB has no authority over any bishop unless the Vatican says they do. In this case your quote says that the USCCB has no authority in this matter but it says nothing about the ordinary, which, again, is the bishops and male religious superiors.

Then what is the point of the USCCB saying that fake candles are not allowed?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Then what is the point of the USCCB saying that fake candles are not allowed?

The USCCB says a lot of things but again, they are not binding unless what they say has been passed by a unanimous vote of the bishops that make up the USCCB (not just some committee) or it is passed by a majority vote and then ratified by Rome.

This is something that we covered in my Christian Moral Life (moral theology) class at the theologate (seminary for religious).

Anyways the USCCB did not say such a thing, from your post;

The Secretariat of the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy

The Secretariat of the Bishops’ Committee on the Liturgy is not the USCCB.

This most likely is a response from the secretariat to questions he has been asked but it is in no way binding as I said earlier, the USCCB is very limited in when its rulings are binding upon ordinaries.

 

[Spirithound]

What will this do to fire insurance premiums, particularly in frame constructed churches?

Insisting on real candles would seem (and I’m not an actuary) to increase the chance of a claim.

It seems to me that it wouldn’t do anything. The candles that have been discussed here are oil-based candles with real flames. Still at least as dangerous as wax candles.

 

[TimothyH]

Most of the “Oil Candles” which people are talking about are actually fueled by liquid paraffin wax. It is liquified wax, sold in pump bottles by the gallon. Yea, it is oily feeling, but it is liquified wax.

Stuff aint cheap either. We are told to light the candles not more than five minutes before Mass and we put them out immediately after the last hymn ends. $40/gallon I think.

There are benefits to using this as a fuel, rather than traditional wax candles. For one thing, some brands are smokeless and soot free. It burns extremely clean, doesn’t flicker when the air handling system starts blowing a breeze through the sanctuary. Flickering candles smoke a lot.

Anyone who has ever tried to get waxy smoke and soot stains off of a ceiling or wall knows what I am talking about. Think about all that waxy smoke on a thirty foot high solid oak ceilling, on the lighting fixtures, in the speakers up there. My Church has a very expensive crucifix up there, lifesized Christ, hand carved and painted by commission, from a very old statuary producer in Italy. We don’t want smoke stains and soot on that thing.

And the sacristans and ladies who volunteer to clean the church are always scraping wax off the floor from those small wax baptismal candles. With all the baptims we do, sometimes 15 on a Saturday, wax gets all over the sanctuary and floor in front of the sanctuary, and tracked around the church as it sticks on people’s feet.

There are benefits, and 99.999% of the poeple never know that it is not a traditional wax candle.

-Tim-

 

[JReducation]

Brother is correct. The Secretariat is a department of the USCCB, not the USCCB. When these departments speak, they are usually responding to an inquiry or just passing along information.

Conferences of bishops, such as the USSCCB, have no authority over bishops or male religious superiors.

A pastor is not an Ordinary. An Ordinary is the bishop of a diocese or his equivalent.

The auxiliary bishop is not an Ordinary. Therefore, he only has as much authority as the Ordinary delegates to him.

A male religious superior of a province or an order is an Ordinary, but need not be a bishop. He needs to be male and be canonically elected. The election must be ratified by a higher authority. Once that is done, he is the Ordinary for those men under him and for the people whom they serve while those individuals are on their premises: religious house, school, college, hospital or other.

For a conference of bishops to overrule an individual bishop, they must make law. They make law when they vote on a point and that point is ratified by the Holy See. In effect, the Holy See is creating the law.

The conference is like a think-tank. Together, the bishops address issues, exchange ideas, cooperate in sharing resources, make agreements with each other. At the end of the day, each bishop takes the conclusions of these discussion and implements them in his diocese under his name, not that of the conference. He issues a decree motu proprio. If on the way home, he changes his mind and back down. that is his right.

The faithful of a diocese, including clergy and religious who work for the bishop are bound to the bishop, not to the conference. We’re only bound to the conference when the bishop says so.

This particular statement speaks about the conference, not the individual bishops. Go with your bishop.

Remember what I said in my first post. Let us always be intellectually honest. We cannot charge the bishops with being thieves, immoral beings, or incopetents in one breadth when we don’t like what they say or when they make a mistake and then fly their flag when they say something or we think they’ve said something that supports what we like. We must always be honest with ourselves. That’s the real issue here, not whether you strike a match to a wax candle or an oil lamp.

The primary issue here is that people found something that supports what they like and are arguing to death to defend the authority of the Bishops’ Conference until the conference says that altar girls should be allowed or CITH should continue, then the conference will be dismissed as not authoritative.

We cannot have it our way. We must deal with the conference with the respect that the Church shows for it and we must acknowledge its scope, breadth and its limits as well.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wayman]

Brother is correct. The Secretariat is a department of the USCCB, not the USCCB. When these departments speak, they are usually responding to an inquiry or just passing along information.

Conferences of bishops, such as the USSCCB, have no authority over bishops or male religious superiors.

A pastor is not an Ordinary. An Ordinary is the bishop of a diocese or his equivalent.

The auxiliary bishop is not an Ordinary. Therefore, he only has as much authority as the Ordinary delegates to him.

A male religious superior of a province or an order is an Ordinary, but need not be a bishop. He needs to be male and be canonically elected. The election must be ratified by a higher authority. Once that is done, he is the Ordinary for those men under him and for the people whom they serve while those individuals are on their premises: religious house, school, college, hospital or other.

For a conference of bishops to overrule an individual bishop, they must make law. They make law when they vote on a point and that point is ratified by the Holy See. In effect, the Holy See is creating the law.

The conference is like a think-tank. Together, the bishops address issues, exchange ideas, cooperate in sharing resources, make agreements with each other. At the end of the day, each bishop takes the conclusions of these discussion and implements them in his diocese under his name, not that of the conference. He issues a decree motu proprio. If on the way home, he changes his mind and back down. that is his right.

The faithful of a diocese, including clergy and religious who work for the bishop are bound to the bishop, not to the conference. We’re only bound to the conference when the bishop says so.

This particular statement speaks about the conference, not the individual bishops. Go with your bishop.

Remember what I said in my first post. Let us always be intellectually honest. We cannot charge the bishops with being thieves, immoral beings, or incopetents in one breadth when we don’t like what they say or when they make a mistake and then fly their flag when they say something or we think they’ve said something that supports what we like. We must always be honest with ourselves. That’s the real issue here, not whether you strike a match to a wax candle or an oil lamp.

The primary issue here is that people found something that supports what they like and are arguing to death to defend the authority of the Bishops’ Conference until the conference says that altar girls should be allowed or CITH should continue, then the conference will be dismissed as not authoritative.

We cannot have it our way. We must deal with the conference with the respect that the Church shows for it and we must acknowledge its scope, breadth and its limits as well.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

That all sounds very convoluted. Which of these individual bishops say that it’s ok to have fake candles for worship? Can you name names?

 

[AndyP2010]

That all sounds very convoluted. Which of these individual bishops say that it’s ok to have fake candles for worship? Can you name names?

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[wayman]

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

I don’t know why you would say that. I was only asking a question to find out where people got the idea that it’s ok to use fake candles in the liturgy when on the USCCB website it clearly states that we should not. It would be nice if someone could answer the question.

 

[JReducation]

That all sounds very convoluted. Which of these individual bishops say that it’s ok to have fake candles for worship? Can you name names?

Which bishop or which religious superior is irrelevant. What is relevant is what your diocesan bishop says. You don’t answer to any other bishop except to him and you owe obedience to him, not the bishop in the diocese next door.

If you attend mass at a church or chapel owned by a religious community of men, then you go with the superior of that community.

In one setting they may be allowed and in another they may be prohibited. That’s the right of the Ordinary.

There is nothing convoluted about it at all. It is the Church’s way of protecting the autonomy of each bishop and each religious superior. The Church is not looking for uniformity. She is looking for unity between the people of a diocese and their bishop and between the bishops and the Pontiff. Think of it as a pyramid.

The chain of command is always the Ordinary then the Holy Father.

When my superior says that we will use purple candles in all of our chapels, what the Carmelite superior says or the Archbishop of NY says is irrelevant. Neither are my Ordinary.

Don’t worry about who says that it’s OK to use these candles or lamps. Just focus on what you bishop allows or forbids.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wayman]

Which bishop or which religious superior is irrelevant. What is relevant is what your diocesan bishop says.

Does your bishop tell everyone to use fake candles?

 

[JReducation]

Which bishop or which religious superior is irrelevant. What is relevant is what your diocesan bishop says. You don’t answer to any other bishop except to him and you owe obedience to him, not the bishop in the diocese next door.

If you attend mass at a church or chapel owned by a religious community of men, then you go with the superior of that community.

In one setting they may be allowed and in another they may be prohibited. That’s the right of the Ordinary.

There is nothing convoluted about it at all. It is the Church’s way of protecting the autonomy of each bishop and each religious superior. The Church is not looking for uniformity. She is looking for unity between the people of a diocese and their bishop and between the bishops and the Pontiff. Think of it as a pyramid.

The chain of command is always the Ordinary then the Holy Father.

When my superior says that we will use purple candles in all of our chapels, what the Carmelite superior says or the Archbishop of NY says is irrelevant. Neither are my Ordinary.

Don’t worry about who says that it’s OK to use these candles or lamps. Just focus on what you bishop allows or forbids.

I have no clue what bishops allow these candles or which religious superiors allow them. I only know what my superior allows and what the bishop of the diocese where I work allows. I don’t need more information than that. When I step outside into a diocesan parish or institution, I go with the local bishop. When I enter my house, I go with the superior. It’s very simple.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Does your bishop tell everyone to use fake candles?

They are allowed in the diocese where I work. They are not allowed in my religious community. Our hose is off bounds to the bishop and the bishop’s parishes are off bounds to our superior. We go with both sets of rules.

The bishop does not prohibit the use of wax candles. Those parishes that want to use them do so. Now that you ask, I can’t remember what the bishop uses when he celebrates mass. That’s weird.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[wayman]

Which bishop or which religious superior is irrelevant. What is relevant is what your diocesan bishop says. You don’t answer to any other bishop except to him and you owe obedience to him, not the bishop in the diocese next door.

If you attend mass at a church or chapel owned by a religious community of men, then you go with the superior of that community.

In one setting they may be allowed and in another they may be prohibited. That’s the right of the Ordinary.

There is nothing convoluted about it at all. It is the Church’s way of protecting the autonomy of each bishop and each religious superior. The Church is not looking for uniformity. She is looking for unity between the people of a diocese and their bishop and between the bishops and the Pontiff. Think of it as a pyramid.

The chain of command is always the Ordinary then the Holy Father.

When my superior says that we will use purple candles in all of our chapels, what the Carmelite superior says or the Archbishop of NY says is irrelevant. Neither are my Ordinary.

Don’t worry about who says that it’s OK to use these candles or lamps. Just focus on what you bishop allows or forbids.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

One is only obligated to follow a chain of command when it is a lawful order. Candles have always been used by the Church for worship. Who was it who had the authority to change that?

 

[JReducation]

One is only obligated to follow a chain of command when it is a lawful order. Candles have always been used by the Church for worship. Who was it who had the authority to change that?

Since this is not in Canon Law and there is no official law from the Holy See, it falls on the diocesan bishop or the male religious superior to make this judgment call.

Canon Law and other protocols give them the power to make such judgment calls in the absence of a canon or other law in the books to address the question.

I’m not sure why you’re fighting the idea of a bishop having authority on a matter such as this.

It certainly does not bother the Vatican. You may be getting yourself worried unnecessarily. Go with your bishop. If in doubt, ask your pastor what your bishop allows. He would know better than anyone else. He’s the pastor’s boss.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

Since this is not in Canon Law and there is no official law from the Holy See, it falls on the diocesan bishop or the male religious superior to make this judgment call.

Canon Law and other protocols give them the power to make such judgment calls in the absence of a canon or other law in the books to address the question. To answer your question, the local bishop or religious superior have the authority to change this.

I’m not sure why you’re fighting the idea of a bishop having authority on a matter such as this.

It certainly does not bother the Vatican. You may be getting yourself worried unnecessarily. Go with your bishop. If in doubt, ask your pastor what your bishop allows. He would know better than anyone else. He’s the pastor’s boss.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sarahforgiven]

This type of thread is why I have a love/hate relationship w/ Catholic Answers forums. I seem to be always coming across small things that aren’t being done “correctly” at my parish, like holding hands during the Our Father at Mass or now knowing that the oil/paraffin or whatever candles my parish has are not “legal.”
For the record, I don’t like hand holding or the passing of the peace at the apex of the Eucharistic celebration, & I always wished my parish had “real” candles and votives to light for prayer. When I was episcopalian we always had wax candles, received communion kneeling at the altar, and did not interrupt the Eucharist with peace passing. We knelt through more of that part of the service & i liked it. However as we all know the Eucharist there did not contain what the Eucharist does in a Catholic Mass.
I am not “in charge” of my parish traditions & don’t know if it is insurance, cost, or smoke residue behind their use of non-wax candles. I am just thankful to God that we are still allowed to gather for worship and for being led by God back into the church that I now know is the one holy catholic and apostolic church. So I am going to be obedient to my priest and follow the traditions that are there. If it means I do a little more hand holding than I like and we have “fake” candles, so be it.

 

[JReducation]

This type of thread is why I have a love/hate relationship w/ Catholic Answers forums. I seem to be always coming across small things that aren’t being done “correctly” at my parish, like holding hands during the Our Father at Mass or now knowing that the oil/paraffin or whatever candles my parish has are not “legal.”
For the record, I don’t like hand holding or the passing of the peace at the apex of the Eucharistic celebration, & I always wished my parish had “real” candles and votives to light for prayer. When I was episcopalian we always had wax candles, received communion kneeling at the altar, and did not interrupt the Eucharist with peace passing. We knelt through more of that part of the service & i liked it. However as we all know the Eucharist there did not contain what the Eucharist does in a Catholic Mass.
I am not “in charge” of my parish traditions & don’t know if it is insurance, cost, or smoke residue behind their use of non-wax candles. I am just thankful to God that we are still allowed to gather for worship and for being led by God back into the church that I now know is the one holy catholic and apostolic church. So I am going to be obedient to my priest and follow the traditions that are there. If it means I do a little more hand holding than I like and we have “fake” candles, so be it.

The document does not say that the fake candles are forbidden. It says that the Bishop’s Conference cannot legalize them. That does not mean that your bishop cannot legalize it for your diocese. If they are used in your parish, it is very likely that your bishop approves. Something like this does not go unnoticed by the bishop. After all, he has make an annual visit to the parish. He’s bound to see them.

Holding hand during the Our Father is legal in the United States. The bishops agreed on this some years ago. It is up to each pastor whether he wants to do it or not. I don’t like it much, but I do as I’m told.

The Sign of Peace is optional. It is up to the celebrant to include it or not. Again, I do as I’m told. It’s not for me to have an opinion.

Standing for Holy Communion is the norm for the United States. The bishops agreed on this. It is up to the local bishop to change it for his diocese, if he wants to do so.

The bishop, priest, deacon or EMHC may not deny someone Holy Communion on their knees. The rules say that you give the person Holy Communion and privately explain to the person that the norm for the USA is to stand. However, you cannot deny the sacrament to those who choose to kneel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

This type of thread is why I have a love/hate relationship w/ Catholic Answers forums.

I think this thread is a prime example of how a little information can cause great damage when one does not understand the context and nuances of it especially when they do not understand the structure of the Church and its ecclesiology.