USCCB VP: No push to punish Notre Dame for Obama invite [NCRep]

[JReducation]

Well let me see. The continent of Europe, and the UK was entirely Roman Catholic. There was hundreds of Monasteries, mendecant orders, etcc all over the UK and Europe. The laity were very pious. We had a Roman Catholic Archbishop of Canterbury and York. No female priests roaming the high altars of Exeter or Salisbury Cathedrals. And churches and Cathedrals back in those days were built properly. I think the Middle Ages weren’t to bad. No worse than today.

Wait a minute, there were many monasteris in Europe, but they were being reformed by the Clunia, Cistercian, Camaldolese and Chatreux movements because they had lost the original spirit of St. Benedict.

There were not hundreds of mendicant orders. There were many penitential movements and most of them were supressed by Innocent III. The first mendicant order was the Franciscan Order in 1209, it received the Bull of Honorius in 1223, which established it as an order of pontifical right. Within the same four months the Dominicans were founded, but were never given approval as an independent order, to this day. They continue to be bound to the Rule of St. Augustine a it was lived by the Canons Regula of St. Augustine. The Canons were not mendicant, they were monastic who did the work of secular priests. The Dominicans were mendicant, but followed a monastic rule. Eventually, the Carmelites returned from the Holy Land, but they were hermits. It was not until the end of the Middle Ages that they were given a status as a mendican order. To this day the only mendicant orders in the Church are: Carmelites, Augustinians, Franciscans, Dominicans, Trinitarians and Mercedarians. I’m not sure where you’re getting these hundreds of mendicant orders. Pope Gregory IX put an end to the foundation of new orders, mendicant and monastic. A future foundations were either congregations of simple vows or pontifical institutes of solemn vows that are part of the mendicant orders approved during the Middle Ages.

The laity was no more pious than the laity today. They complied with observance of Catholic teaching. That does not make the pious. In fact the Secular Orders were founded to convert the laity. The first were the Franciscans, then Dominicans and later Carmelites. The Secular Franciscans were mandated by the rule that St. Francis wrote forbade them to pledge allegience to any lay civil authority, because they were currupt. It also forbade them to bear arms in defence of their country, because the lay governments were sinful and abusive. They were forbidden from serving inthe Armed Forces to reduce the conflicts for power between nationsl. If Francis of Assisi and Dominic felt it was necessary to impose these obligations on the laity, it does not sound like it was such a pious world.

Churches and cathedrals were USUALLY built properly. Remember how Francis of Assisi began his ministry. He began by rebuiltind churches and chapels that were allowed to fall apart and then abandoned because they were useless. At San Damiano, the priest could not celebrate mass because the Church was not fit for human beings. The Blessed Sacrament was hidden and the sacred books were often tossed on shelves. For that reason Francis insisted that the tabernacle be moved to the center altar and wrote into the rule of the Franciscan Order that they should clean, refurbish and preserve the liturgical books that they found thrown around and neglected.

The Tridentine Mass as we know it today began with a simple discarded missal that Innocent III gave to Francis of Assisi during the Lateran Council. The friars were so poor that their chaplain did not have a missal. Innocent gave them a cast away missal. During a 300 year period this missal was adopted by many parishes and other religous communities. But even with the adoption, there were variations. It was the Council of Trent that ordered it formatted to be the same. But it took 40 years for this happe. It was Pius V who made it happen.

There were no female priests, but there were abbesses who had the same authority as the bishops. All priests in their jurisdiction answered to them. They disciplined, assigned and looked over the formation of priests, because the secular clergy was almost iliterate and the abbesses were highly educated in languages, philosophy, theology, and humanities.

Let us not forget the many heretical movements that led to the Protestant Reformation.

I don’t believe that the Middle Ages wee better or worse. I believe that they had very different issues.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Oceanon]

Reviewing these entries has made me glad The Church is not a Democracy governed by the laity. Clearly, our Holy Father and the Bishops know how better to provide Obama with an opportunity to repent.

JESUS came eating and drinking with sinners, yet HE is Author and Finisher of our Faith. Should we really regard ourselves as ‘above’ HIS Vicar, or even HIS Bishops? I think not.

 

[JReducation]

Reviewing these entries has made me glad The Church is not a Democracy governed by the laity. Clearly, our Holy Father and the Bishops know how better to provide Obama with an opportunity to repent.

JESUS came eating and drinking with sinners, yet HE is Author and Finisher of our Faith. Should we really regard ourselves as ‘above’ HIS Vicar, or even HIS Bishops? I think not.

I am reminded of what our holy Father Francis commands our brothers and sisters in our rule and in his last testament. He wanted us to live by this guideline and teach it to the laity. For this reason, he founded the Secular Franciscan Order, so that together, we the brothers and sisters, and the secular brothers and sisters would convert the world to obedience and penance, so that the world would be more like Christ.

These passages from the holy rule and the testament of our holy Father Francis speak to all of us of what the Gospel expects from us regarding deacons, priests, bishops and popes.

" That person leaves everything he possesses and loses his body who surrenders his whole self to obedience at the hands of his prelate (bishop). And whatever he does and says which he knows is not contrary to his bishop’s will, provided that what he does is not sinful, is true obedience.

And should the subject sometimes see that some things might be better and more useful for his soul than what the bishop may command him, let him willingly offer such things to God as a sacrifice; and instead earnestly try to follow the wishes of the bishop. For this is loving obedience becasue it pleases God and neighbor." (Rule of St. Francis, Ch III)

“And if I possessed as much wisdom as Solomon had and I came upon pitiful sinful priests of this world, I would not preach contrary to their will. And I desire to fear, love and honor them and all others as my masters. We must not wish to consider sin in them because we discern the Son of God in them and they are our masters. And we act on this way since we see nothing corporally of the Most High Son of God in this world except His Most holy Body and Blood which they receive and which they alone administer to others.” (Testament, Art 6)

These rules have gone unchallenged for 800 years. And to this day, any Franciscan, Secular or Regular, who violates these rules is subject to the strictest discipline. The laity who may be associated with the Franciscan family is taught to obey and respect priests, bishops and popes whom the Holy See acknowledges to be in communion with the Apostolic See or whose authority, even if they are not in communion, such as the Orthodox, is without question by the Roman Church.

I hope this serves as material for meditation and prayer for some. I deal with bishops all the time and I find myself rereading these passages and praying for the grace to live them. I find they bring me peace in times of stress and concern. May they do the same for others.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[canadianguy1143]

I am reminded of what our holy Father Francis commands our brothers and sisters in our rule and in his last testament. He wanted us to live by this guideline and teach it to the laity. For this reason, he founded the Secular Franciscan Order, so that together, we the brothers and sisters, and the secular brothers and sisters would convert the world to obedience and penance, so that the world would be more like Christ.

These passages from the holy rule and the testament of our holy Father Francis speak to all of us of what the Gospel expects from us regarding deacons, priests, bishops and popes.

" That person leaves everything he possesses and loses his body who surrenders his whole self to obedience at the hands of his prelate (bishop). And whatever he does and says which he knows is not contrary to his bishop’s will, provided that what he does is not sinful, is true obedience.

And should the subject sometimes see that some things might be better and more useful for his soul than what the bishop may command him, let him willingly offer such things to God as a sacrifice; and instead earnestly try to follow the wishes of the bishop. For this is loving obedience becasue it pleases God and neighbor." (Rule of St. Francis, Ch III)

“And if I possessed as much wisdom as Solomon had and I came upon pitiful sinful priests of this world, I would not preach contrary to their will. And I desire to fear, love and honor them and all others as my masters. We must not wish to consider sin in them because we discern the Son of God in them and they are our masters. And we act on this way since we see nothing corporally of the Most High Son of God in this world except His Most holy Body and Blood which they receive and which they alone administer to others.” (Testament, Art 6)

These rules have gone unchallenged for 800 years. And to this day, any Franciscan, Secular or Regular, who violates these rules is subject to the strictest discipline. The laity who may be associated with the Franciscan family is taught to obey and respect priests, bishops and popes whom the Holy See acknowledges to be in communion with the Apostolic See or whose authority, even if they are not in communion, such as the Orthodox, is without question by the Roman Church.

I hope this serves as material for meditation and prayer for some. I deal with bishops all the time and I find myself rereading these passages and praying for the grace to live them. I find they bring me peace in times of stress and concern. May they do the same for others.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

JR, since you are a Religious and well educated in our Faith, I would like to ask you the following question:

Isn’t causing scandal a sin? I ask this as it is my educated belief that Father Jenkins caused GRAVE scandal by the awarding of Pres. Obama an honorary degree of Law. Now it may be possible that originally Father Jenkins had no say in the decision to award President Obama but he was a willing participant. From a religious point of view, if scandal is indeed a sin, then wouldn’t that free him from his Vow of Obedience?

 

[JReducation]

JR, since you are a Religious and well educated in our Faith, I would like to ask you the following question:

Isn’t causing scandal a sin? I ask this as it is my educated belief that Father Jenkins caused GRAVE scandal by the awarding of Pres. Obama an honorary degree of Law. Now it may be possible that originally Father Jenkins had no say in the decision to award President Obama but he was a willing participant. From a religious point of view, if scandal is indeed a sin, then wouldn’t that free him from his Vow of Obedience?

You are very right. Scandal is a sin. That being said, our religious consecration does not depend on our holiness or on the state of our souls. When we make vows we make a covenant with God, the Church and the religious community.

Like Israel, the covenant is not revoked because of sin. God makes the covenant with the individual, regardless of his failures and weaknesses. Since the covenant is between God, the Church, the order and the religious, one person cannot undo the covenant. It’s a four-part relationship and it is perpetually binding on all four parts.

God did ot choose to terminate his covenant with Israel nor did he abandon them. They did not cease to be his chosen people, despite their sins. So is the case with a religious. The vow is a sign of a covenant. There is no sin that can annul a vow.

The only way that a consecrated religious is freed from the responsibilities that come with the vows is through the mercy of the Holy Father who dispenses the religious from fulfilling what he has promised, without the impunity of sin. A dispensation does not mean that the covenant is terminated. It means that the person is not obliged to fulfill his or her part of it, because the Church believes that it is impossible. It is the Church’s desire to love what God loves and desire what God desires, which is the salvation of souls. Therefore, the Church dispenses the person from the obligations that come from the vow, so that the person can rejoin the ranks of the faithful without being guilty of sin.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[robtax]

There have been moments that I feel really frustrated that our Bishops and clergy are not giving better guidance when it comes to the life issues. It’s not really taught or preached about such that someone weak in their faith might assume that those issues aren’t that important or that there is grey area that no one understands.

I concur with Father in that we should respect our priest, bishops etc. I would go a step further to say we rely on them. We rely on them for the most important aspect…our spiritual life. If you look at the condition of adult faith formation in this country, it’s pretty easy to see how we have come to the place we now find ourselves. Folks can’t tell the difference from right or wrong anymore. It’s all shades of gray.

But I’m not going to point the finger at the clergy. We have a responsibility to learn our faith. A serious student of the faith would know the clear response to the ND issue. We have a free will and it’s up to each of us to study our faith and our conscience in prayer to guide our actions.

Studying the faith on our own is more important than ever since our bishops cannot seem to unite on these issues of life. We must be one voice and one body. We clearly are not and I am beginning to understand why folks leave the church. In some sense, we are behaving no better than all the other Christian demoniations out there that make the rules as they go.

This is a sad state of affairs. I hope the Bishops begin to see the gravity of their actions and inactions. They teach by what they do and what they don’t do.

 

[Oceanon]

I am reminded of what our holy Father Francis commands our brothers and sisters in our rule and in his last testament. He wanted us to live by this guideline and teach it to the laity. For this reason, he founded the Secular Franciscan Order, so that together, we the brothers and sisters, and the secular brothers and sisters would convert the world to obedience and penance, so that the world would be more like Christ.

These passages from the holy rule and the testament of our holy Father Francis speak to all of us of what the Gospel expects from us regarding deacons, priests, bishops and popes.

" That person leaves everything he possesses and loses his body who surrenders his whole self to obedience at the hands of his prelate (bishop). And whatever he does and says which he knows is not contrary to his bishop’s will, provided that what he does is not sinful, is true obedience.

And should the subject sometimes see that some things might be better and more useful for his soul than what the bishop may command him, let him willingly offer such things to God as a sacrifice; and instead earnestly try to follow the wishes of the bishop. For this is loving obedience becasue it pleases God and neighbor." (Rule of St. Francis, Ch III)

“And if I possessed as much wisdom as Solomon had and I came upon pitiful sinful priests of this world, I would not preach contrary to their will. And I desire to fear, love and honor them and all others as my masters. We must not wish to consider sin in them because we discern the Son of God in them and they are our masters. And we act on this way since we see nothing corporally of the Most High Son of God in this world except His Most holy Body and Blood which they receive and which they alone administer to others.” (Testament, Art 6)

These rules have gone unchallenged for 800 years. And to this day, any Franciscan, Secular or Regular, who violates these rules is subject to the strictest discipline. The laity who may be associated with the Franciscan family is taught to obey and respect priests, bishops and popes whom the Holy See acknowledges to be in communion with the Apostolic See or whose authority, even if they are not in communion, such as the Orthodox, is without question by the Roman Church.

I hope this serves as material for meditation and prayer for some. I deal with bishops all the time and I find myself rereading these passages and praying for the grace to live them. I find they bring me peace in times of stress and concern. May they do the same for others.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you for your comments. Forgive me for not having responded sooner; it took me some time to absorb the material you presented.

I joined the Catholic Church rather recently and have a question concerning how controversial matters are best handled.

Isn’t it beter to defer to the Hierarchy in approach and strategy, especially during volatile debates?

 

[JReducation]

Thank you for your comments. Forgive me for not having responded sooner; it took me some time to absorb the material you presented.

I joined the Catholic Church rather recently and have a question concerning how controversial matters are best handled.

Isn’t it beter to defer to the Hierarchy in approach and strategy, especially during volatile debates?

I’ll explain how our holy Father Francis looked at this issue. The reason I’m doing that is because Franciscans always try to look at the Gospel through Francis’ eyes. Call it love of our father and trust in God’s grace. That does not mean that there are never other points of view. It simply means, that he is a good teacher for us and for those to whom we minister.

1. Always remember that the bishops are our masters. They are the successors of the Apostles. When they command or direct us, even when we disagree, if the matter does not violate conscience or is dangerous to our safety, we offer up our own wishes and position for the grace of conversion, theirs and ours, and we obey.
2. The Gospel is to be taken at its word. Therefore, Jesus’ promise that he will be with the Church until the end of time is truth. There is nothing to fear, except for the hard days ahead. But we need never fear failure. The cross will always triumph.
3. No one should ever claim authority that they have not received from God. Those who take it upon themselves to tell the Church how to operate are sinning by presumption against humility.
4. Our mission is to preach the Gospel. We are not always going to be understood. But that is not an excuse for divisiveness or aggression. The devil rejoices when the Mystical Body is in conflict. When I say “our mission” I’m speaking about every member of the Mystical Body. This is the Royal Priesthood.
5. There are times when we have to recognize our limitations and do what we can do and allow someone else to deal with what we cannot fix. Our holy Father Francis taught us well in this matter, as did people like Mother Teresa, Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, Ignatius of Loyola, John Paul II, Padre Pio and so many other holy men and women. No one individual or one group can fix everything at once. This is where the virtue of prudence and trust come in. We must be like Mary, the Immaculate Heart. Love with a clean and pure heart, without shame or anger and trust the hand of God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Spiritoftruth]

1. No one should ever claim authority that they have not received from God. Those who take it upon themselves to tell the Church how to operate are sinning by presumption against humility.

I could not agree more…

 

[Oceanon]

I’ll explain how our holy Father Francis looked at this issue. . . .

Br. JR, OSF

Now that I’m retired (save for a few odd jobs I take up now and then) I have a lot of time to read. Could you recommend a book about St Francis, his teachings, life and times?

(Sorry if this is off topic – I don’t yet know where to post such a question as this.)

 

[JReducation]

Now that I’m retired (save for a few odd jobs I take up now and then) I have a lot of time to read. Could you recommend a book about St Francis, his teachings, life and times?

(Sorry if this is off topic – I don’t yet know where to post such a question as this.)

One of the best biographies is St. Francis by St. Bonaventure and another by Englebert. Englebert is more reader friendly than Bonny. Bonny attempts to get into the theology behind the man, Francis of Assisi.

There is a book by Regis Armstrong, OFM Cap, et al, Francis and Clare: The Complete Works

You can find them at www.amazon.com and at www.franciscanresources.com

I’m glad that you’re interested in this topic. It’s not as off-topic as some may think. Francis and Clare have a great deal to teach us about relating appropriately to the hierarchy, how to respond when we disagree, how to live within a Church that is not perfect, but is built upon the substance of truth. They have a great deal to teach us about the life of a Catholic in troubled times.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Roy5]

NO PUNISHMENT CALLED FOR

  Punish Notre Dame for inviting the president to speak - and to honor him for his work in the inner-city, as a college teacher, as a legislator in Springfield and DC, and as our chief executive, the most powerful man in the world? I think he honored Notre Dame by accepting the invitation.

   Think of all the babies still in the womb when God commanded Joshua to slay every man, woman and child in Jericho, Ai, and elsewhere. And all the Amalekite babies, many still in the womb, when the Lord ordered Saul to slaughter every last Amalekite. As I recall, that 'great king' David was praised with the chant "Saul has killed his thousands, but David has killed his ten thousands!"

    But our churches call this the 'Word of God' and carry that book with such cruel atrocity stories into the church amid much solemnity and acclamation. 

    One more question (among many). How many babies in the womb were murdered when the Albigensians, Huguenots, Muslims and other 'heretics' were massacred by pious warriors for Christ? Even St. Thomas Aquinas condemned abortion but asked that heretics be delivered over to the civil authorities to be executed. Very saintly indeed!

     Just how hypocritical should good Christians be if they swallow these and many other evil deeds but then stand in judgment over a great university?

    God bless Notre Dame and every college - and those of every faith - which/who seeks to promote understanding, mutual respect, peace, and love.

 

[JReducation]

NO PUNISHMENT CALLED FOR

  Punish Notre Dame for inviting the president to speak - and to honor him for his work in the inner-city, as a college teacher, as a legislator in Springfield and DC, and as our chief executive, the most powerful man in the world? I think he honored Notre Dame by accepting the invitation.

   Think of all the babies still in the womb when God commanded Joshua to slay every man, woman and child in Jericho, Ai, and elsewhere. And all the Amalekite babies, many still in the womb, when the Lord ordered Saul to slaughter every last Amalekite. As I recall, that 'great king' David was praised with the chant "Saul has killed his thousands, but David has killed his ten thousands!"

    But our churches call this the 'Word of God' and carry that book with such cruel atrocity stories into the church amid much solemnity and acclamation. 

    One more question (among many). How many babies in the womb were murdered when the Albigensians, Huguenots, Muslims and other 'heretics' were massacred by pious warriors for Christ? Even St. Thomas Aquinas condemned abortion but asked that heretics be delivered over to the civil authorities to be executed. Very saintly indeed!

     Just how hypocritical should good Christians be if they swallow these and many other evil deeds but then stand in judgment over a great university?

    God bless Notre Dame and every college - and those of every faith - which/who seeks to promote understanding, mutual respect, peace, and love.

You do realize that the above biblical narrative is out of context? One has to look at it within the entire context of Revelation. In addition, we also have to remember that that scriptures have many stories that have many nuances. Finally, that the number of deaths in these stories do not add up to millions of people. In the largest Palestinian cities 4,000 years ago there may have been 100 to 500 families.

Given that today we are living after the fullness of revelation has been revealed, these stories take on a different meaning as they are properly placed in the context of salvation history. In other words, they were never meant to be used to justify abortion, euthenasia, fetal stem cell research and other actions that threaten the vulnerable members of society.

When these words are carried with love and devotion it is because they contain the the story of salvation and the complete story of revelation. In other words, the Bible, from cover to cover is the story of Jesus Christ: the promised one, the savior, and the head of the Church.

This does not mean that Fr. Jenkins is a criminal. It does mean that what President Obama promotes is contrary to the full truth that is revealed in the scriptures, simply because Christ is not about murder. He was the victim of murder, not its promoter. Stop and think about his as a rational Christian.

Above you say that God ordered killing. But we have to mention that Christ condemned the rule, “an eye for an eye”. He also stopped those who would kill the woman caught in adultery.

Speaking of that, he does say, “Let him who has no sin throw the first stone.” In that case, I would agree that there have been too many people throwing stones at Fr. Jenkins. At some point it gets over done. There is fraternal correction and their is hostility and they’re not the same.

Nonetheless, the bishops had said that no one should honor a public figure who is pro abortion. The University does have to deal with that poor judgement, even if it’s to live with it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Oceanon]

One of the best biographies is St. Francis by St. Bonaventure and another by Englebert. . . .
Br. JR, OSF

Thank you!

Sorry for not having responded earlier; I was busy with my three sons over the July 4th holidays.

I’ll get the books right away – if you don’t hear from me it is because I’m reading! My favourite thing to do.