Usccb

[richardwy]

The question being asked is what is the scope of my obedience to the princes of the church, the modern apostles, the bishops?

I’ve not yet come to the boundary of my obedience to their apostolic scope. I’m a sheep in God’s fold. My citizenship is in heaven. I live in the world, but not of the world. There are things I need to know and duties I need to perform as a good citizen. I can’t do them without my conscience formed aright. Can’t be my own teacher and get that done.

I read carefully "The Doctrinal Note on some questions regarding The Participation of Catholics in Political Life"vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html Did I read the wrong one? It teaches me the same thing: my conscience needs forming.

This is the “in brief” paragraph from the CCC. It says it all for me: "The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: “the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (⇒ Rev 21:14). She is indestructible (cf ⇒ Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other apostles, who are present in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops (869).

So, I come to the USCCB like sheep when the shepherd calls and says, “Hey, you, y’all come over here, want to teach your some things.”

 

[PluniaZ]

The question being asked is what is the scope of my obedience to the princes of the church, the modern apostles, the bishops?

I’ve not yet come to the boundary of my obedience to their apostolic scope. I’m a sheep in God’s fold. My citizenship is in heaven. I live in the world, but not of the world. There are things I need to know and duties I need to perform as a good citizen. I can’t do them without my conscience formed aright. Can’t be my own teacher and get that done.

I read carefully "The Doctrinal Note on some questions regarding The Participation of Catholics in Political Life"vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html Did I read the wrong one? It teaches me the same thing: my conscience needs forming.

This is the “in brief” paragraph from the CCC. It says it all for me: "The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: “the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (⇒ Rev 21:14). She is indestructible (cf ⇒ Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other apostles, who are present in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops (869).

So, I come to the USCCB like sheep when the shepherd calls and says, “Hey, you, y’all come over here, want to teach your some things.”

There is no scope of obedience. Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote that even kings had to obey the Pope.

Just do as you pastors in the Church tell you, and you will do well.

 

[richardwy]

Healthcare and immigration policies for a specific country are not matters of “the faith.”

Healthcare: CCC ¶ 2288 – Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church:¶ 166, 182, 222, 245, 293,

Immigration: CCC ¶ 2241 – Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church: ¶ 289, 297, 298, 308, 447, 477, 478.

 

[richardwy]

What about healthcare or immigration? Can we disagree publicly? Can we agree with the premiss but not the implementation?

I ask only because on these topics I’ve been told that I’m not allowed to disagree . . … These people cite canon law 753 as their reason. I counter with that only pertains to doctrine not public letters put out by the USCCB.

Code of Canon Law ¶ 336, 337 §2 steers me in the right direction as to the question "Why should I listen to you guys and/or cotton to what you are teaching?.

Also, at a more visceral level, this comes to mind: And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him, and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life? But he said to him: What is written in the law? how readest thou? He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said to him: Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he willing to justify himself, said to Jesus: And who is my neighbour St. Luke 10:25-29?

My reaction to Jesus’ parable has been, “Well, that’s bunk. I don’t want to help my neighbor, I want them to help me.” Hence, because of my concupiscence in desiring to get as many goodies as possible without sharing, I need my conscience formed which our Church’s teaching invites me to realize.

“By its interventions in this area, the Church’s Magisterium does not wish to exercise political power or eliminate the freedom of opinion of Catholics regarding contingent questions. Instead, it intends – as is its proper function – to instruct and illuminate the consciences of the faithful, particularly those involved in political life, so that their actions may always serve the integral promotion of the human person and the common good” (DOCTRINAL NOTE on some questions regarding The Participation of Catholics in Political Life III #6).

 

[lynnvinc]

Have a question that I’ve been dealing with the last few days.

When the Bishops put out one of their “letters” as they seem to do quite frequently on various topics… Are we allowed to disagree with the letter on a public forum? Say Climate change…there is a lot of discussion about it…man made vs natural cycle etc. Can we say we disagree with them or do we have to be silent and obedient?

Actually the whole matter is very simple and does not require the bishops to tell us anything for us to do the needful.

God told us thru the 10 Commandments, “Thou shalt no kill.” By contributing to climate change, which kills people in various ways on into the future for many generations to come, we need to do what we can to mitigate it at least in our personal lives, even if we can’t get the gov or other people to do anything about it, even if the bishops or last 3 popes had not said we have to mitigate it (which all have said).

It’s not so much a social justice issue as a Cain and Abel, basic morality issue.

 

[e_c]

There is no scope of obedience. Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote that even kings had to obey the Pope.

Just do as you pastors in the Church tell you, and you will do well.

I believe St. Thomas also refused the episcopacy three times.

 

[Rau]

There is no scope of obedience…Just do as you pastors in the Church tell you, and you will do well.

Does the demonstrated waywardness (resulting in conviction for a crime) of some pastors not give you pause when you make that statement? Does it not suggest that loyalty and obedience to imperfect man always knows limits?

 

[Rau]

I believe St. Thomas also refused the episcopacy three times.

Refused to obey, or refused to become a bishop??

 

[e_c]

Refused to obey, or refused to become a bishop??

Refused to become a bishop - which was being asked of him. According to PluniaZ, it would seem that is “disobedient.” It is not.

 

[richardwy]

CCC ¶ 2032: The Church, the “pillar and bulwark of the truth,” “has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth.” “To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls.”

¶ 2034: The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are “authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice.”

¶ 2036: The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.

¶ 2039: the conscience of each person should avoid confining itself to individualistic considerations in its moral judgments of the person’s own acts. As far as possible conscience should take account of the good of all, as expressed in the moral law, natural and revealed, and consequently in the law of the Church and in the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium on moral questions. Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.

§ 6 Doctrinal Note on some questions regarding The Participation of Catholics in Political Life: By its interventions in this area, the Church’s Magisterium does not wish to exercise political power or eliminate the freedom of opinion of Catholics regarding contingent questions. Instead, it intends – as is its proper function – to instruct and illuminate the consciences of the faithful, particularly those involved in political life, so that their actions may always serve the integral promotion of the human person and the common good. The social doctrine of the Church is not an intrusion into the government of individual countries. It is a question of the lay Catholic’s duty to be morally coherent, found within one’s conscience, which is one and indivisible.