Using a Statue or Image as a Reminder

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Cling2Cross

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In the book of Deuteronomy, we find the following passage…

"Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, "lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, (Deuteronomy 4:15-16 NKJV)

This can be tied to the second of the ten commandments (yes, ten…Deut 10:4) which is…

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV)

This commandment comes after the first commandment about Who to worship…the second being - HOW to worship. Nowhere in scripture are we sanctioned to make images for use in our worship of or prayer to God…for the purpose of avoiding this danger…

I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. (Isaiah 42:8 NKJV)

God is a spirit - and thay that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth…John 4:24.

I guess, I see this as a challenge to practices in the Catholic Church. Your thoughts.
 
Cling2Cross said:
In the book of Deuteronomy, we find the following passage…

"Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, "lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, (Deuteronomy 4:15-16 NKJV)

This can be tied to the second of the ten commandments (yes, ten…Deut 10:4) which is…

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV)

This commandment comes after the first commandment about Who to worship…the second being - HOW to worship. Nowhere in scripture are we sanctioned to make images for use in our worship of or prayer to God…for the purpose of avoiding this danger…

I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. (Isaiah 42:8 NKJV)

God is a spirit - and thay that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth…John 4:24.

I guess, I see this as a challenge to practices in the Catholic Church. Your thoughts.
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Agreed.

The commands are clear.

The Apostles also knew very well that this doctrine has not been abrogated in any fashion. 1Cr 10:14

We as believers should not be seeking loopholes as to avoid obeying our Lord’s plain instruction…whether in letter or spirit.

Let us pray that all Christians can come back to the Word in obedience and submission and that we ourselves will not fall for these errors condemned under both Old and New Covenants.

…
 
Atemi said:
Agreed.

The commands are clear.

The Apostles also knew very well that this doctrine has not been abrogated in any fashion. 1Cr 10:14
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We as believers should not be seeking loopholes as to avoid obeying our Lord’s plain instruction…whether in letter or spirit.

Let us pray that all Christians can come back to the Word in obedience and submission and that we ourselves will not fall for these errors condemned under both Old and New Covenants.

…Already answered above. Of course by this thinking the Muslims are right and like the Taliban, we should prohibit ALL images. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/sSig_yeahright.gif
 
Church_Militant said:
Of course by this thinking the Muslims are right and like the Taliban, we should prohibit ALL images.
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Why would we ever do that? That is not the command of God.

A good start is obeying what He actually said. The believer can then work from there.

…
 
Atemi said:
Why would we ever do that? That is not the command of God.

A good start is obeying what He actually said. The believer can then work from there.

…
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Really? But that is the only logical outcome of your errant interpretation. At least the Taliban follow it out to the logical conclusion. Let me know when you get rid of every image you own Atemi.
 
Cling2Cross said:
In the book of Deuteronomy, we find the following passage…

"Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, "lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, (Deuteronomy 4:15-16 NKJV)

This can be tied to the second of the ten commandments (yes, ten…Deut 10:4) which is…

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV)

This commandment comes after the first commandment about Who to worship…the second being - HOW to worship. Nowhere in scripture are we sanctioned to make images for use in our worship of or prayer to God…for the purpose of avoiding this danger…

I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. (Isaiah 42:8 NKJV)

God is a spirit - and thay that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth…John 4:24.

I guess, I see this as a challenge to practices in the Catholic Church. Your thoughts.
Click to expand...
kjv EXo25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
 
Atemi said:
Why would we ever do that? That is not the command of God.
…
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Cling2Cross said:
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV)
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(My emphasis!)

I see this as a challenge to Protestants - well, those who want to live under the Law of Moses, anyway. 😉

“Everything is permissible” - as long as it leads to God, and not away from Him. Maybe you didn’t get to that verse yet (you cited the same chapter). Why do you guys worry about such things when, for example, more than 1 million innocent children are being slaughtered every year in “the land of the free”? We’re in a war here, my brothers, let’s remember who the Enemy is. God bless.
 
Oh for cryin’ out loud. This is the most childish of fundamentalist accusations. Is this the best you can come up with Cling2?
 
panevino said:
kjv EXo25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
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ezek 41:Then he measured the length of the building facing the courtyard at the rear of the temple, including its galleries on each side; it was a hundred cubits.

The outer sanctuary, the inner sanctuary and the portico facing the court, 16as well as the thresholds and the narrow windows and galleries around the three of them—everything beyond and including the threshold was covered with wood. The floor, the wall up to the windows, and the windows were covered. 17In the space above the outside of the entrance to the inner sanctuary and on the walls at regular intervals all around the inner and outer sanctuary 18were carved cherubim and palm trees. Palm trees alternated with cherubim. Each cherub had two faces: 19the face of a man toward the palm tree on one side and the face of a lion toward the palm tree on the other. They were carved all around the whole temple. 20From the floor to the area above the entrance, cherubim and palm trees were carved on the wall of the outer sanctuary.
 
panevino said:
kjv EXo25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
Click to expand...
There needs to be reconciliation between scripture commands like the one here (and elsewhere in scripture) with the passages that I brought to light at the beginning of the thread. Points below:
  1. God says not to make images/likenesses in Exodus 20 and reiterates in Deut 4:15
  2. Then, you see here - he says - Make an image/likeness- Cherubim, etc.
SO…we need to determine what more God is saying about not making them in Exodus, Deuteronomy, and elsewhere…there is more to it than that…
  • We know that He does not want us worshipping other god’s and that is clear
  • We know that he is asking for the making of particular images/likenesses
…but, when making these likenesses, how are we to use them.

Did God ever say to bow to an image since it is a likeness of Him and a reminder of Him? I think we can say, no. In Deuteronomy, it even says that He avoided taking any form so as to be sure that they would not make any representation of Him at all. He never said…Here is how I look…make a picture of me and bow before it when you pray. So, again…HOW we are to worship is important here. To bow down to a statue because it is a reminder of God (being in His likeness) is nowhere prescribed in scripture. The use of images to worship God (i.e. stations of the cross, shrines, etc.) is nowhere mentioned as a proper means of worship. Christ, as I mentioned says…we are to worship in spirit and in truth. God is spirit…invisible. Therefore, using anything visible in our worship of God is not permitted or prescribed in scripture.

The commandments go as follows…
  1. Who to worship
  2. How to worship
  3. Sincerety in worship
  4. When to worship
I believe that the using of images is not necessary (more importantly, not permitted) and works to bring people into temptation of idolatry. It is a breach of the second commandment. It goes against walking by faith and not by sight…faith glorifies God - relying on sight steal glory from God.

C2C
 
panevino said:
ezek 41:Then he measured the length of the building facing the courtyard at the rear of the temple, including its galleries on each side; it was a hundred cubits.

The outer sanctuary, the inner sanctuary and the portico facing the court, 16as well as the thresholds and the narrow windows and galleries around the three of them—everything beyond and including the threshold was covered with wood. The floor, the wall up to the windows, and the windows were covered. 17In the space above the outside of the entrance to the inner sanctuary and on the walls at regular intervals all around the inner and outer sanctuary 18were carved cherubim and palm trees. Palm trees alternated with cherubim. Each cherub had two faces: 19the face of a man toward the palm tree on one side and the face of a lion toward the palm tree on the other. They were carved all around the whole temple. 20From the floor to the area above the entrance, cherubim and palm trees were carved on the wall of the outer sanctuary.
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Did God tell anyone to use those carvings in worship?
 
Cling2Cross said:
I do not believe that you worship the statue (maybe some do)…but I believe you worship against the second commandment. Therefore, this would be something serious.
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Either way you believe wrong.
 
Cling2Cross said:
Did God tell anyone to use those carvings in worship?
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Are you accusing us Catholics of using statues in worship? Sounds as though you are. . .and you’re wrong.

Catholics will proudly ‘admit’ to such practices as believing in a Real Presence of the Eucharist. They will proudly ‘admit’ to belief in a hierarchy, that Peter was given the ‘keys’, etc.

So why would we ‘deny’ a practice of worshipping statues if we actually did the practice?

It’s as though Protestants are really saying, “Yeah, I know you Catholics SAY you do A, B, and C but you don’t do X. But I’m telling you that you do SO do X no matter how you deny it–so you’re either liars or you’re utterly stupid.”

Not the most Christian behavior, is it?
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Are you accusing us Catholics of using statues in worship? Sounds as though you are. . .and you’re wrong.

Catholics will proudly ‘admit’ to such practices as believing in a Real Presence of the Eucharist. They will proudly ‘admit’ to belief in a hierarchy, that Peter was given the ‘keys’, etc.

So why would we ‘deny’ a practice of worshipping statues if we actually did the practice?

It’s as though Protestants are really saying, “Yeah, I know you Catholics SAY you do A, B, and C but you don’t do X. But I’m telling you that you do SO do X no matter how you deny it–so you’re either liars or you’re utterly stupid.”

Not the most Christian behavior, is it?
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You don’t need to get upset…you should be confident and calm…

I see people praying before shrines all the time around the corner from where I live…I was at the chapel there and saw a woman kneeling in front of images on a wall in the church - using them in worship. The Eucharist - well that is another thread.
 
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