Using a Statue or Image as a Reminder

[Tantum_ergo]

You don’t need to get upset…you should be confident and calm… I’m not upset, why on earth would you assume that I am? I am confident and calm, why do you assume I am not?

I see people praying before shrines all the time around the corner from where I live…I was at the chapel there and saw a woman kneeling in front of images on a wall in the church - using them in worship. The Eucharist - well that is another thread.

And of course you ‘read their hearts and minds’ and you know that these people have ‘replaced’ God in their hearts and totally worship those ‘statues’ as false gods. Yeah, uh-huh.

Hey, I went into a Protestant church and saw people kneeling in front of a BOOK and a FLAG. Must have been that they were praying to and worshipping that book and flag, right? Using them in worship, tsk tsk.

 

[Church_Militant]

You don’t need to get upset…you should be confident and calm…

I see people praying before shrines all the time around the corner from where I live…I was at the chapel there and saw a woman kneeling in front of images on a wall in the church - using them in worship. The Eucharist - well that is another thread.

But of course you didn’t bother to ask anyone there if they were worshiping those statues now did you?
Of course not. You don’t want facts, you want to misrepresent Catholic belief and practice and bash our most holy faith. It’s nothing new…You are in the same class as the pagans who persecuted us in the first 3 centuries of the Christian faith.

They were so misinformed they said that we Christians. “eat our god and drown our children”. Pretty sad…

 

[Cling2Cross]

But of course you didn’t bother to ask anyone there if they were worshiping those statues now did you?
Of course not. You don’t want facts, you want to misrepresent Catholic belief and practice and bash our most holy faith. It’s nothing new…You are in the same class as the pagans who persecuted us in the first 3 centuries of the Christian faith.

They were so misinformed they said that we Christians. “eat our god and drown our children”. Pretty sad…

First thing I want to say is - don’t strawman me. I did not say you worship the statues. I said that you wrongly use them in your worship.

Second thing, and this is important…What does the second commandment say over and above the frst commandment in light of Deuteronomy 4:15?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

First thing I want to say is - don’t strawman me. I did not say you worship the statues. I said that you wrongly use them in your worship.

Second thing, and this is important…What does the second commandment say over and above the frst commandment in light of Deuteronomy 4:15?

And we say that we do not wrongly use them in our worship. We claim the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the Scripture (which we understand as a whole, contextually, and not in cherry picked verses taken OUT of context.)

We do not claim that ‘statues’ are god. We do not accord them worship which belongs to God.

Honoring a person on earth (or in heaven) does not equate to us according them ‘godlike’ status or thinking them god.

 

[Church_Militant]

First thing I want to say is - don’t strawman me. I did not say you worship the statues. I said that you wrongly use them in your worship.

That’s not a straw man, it’s the implication of your argument.

Have you ever been to Mass? Doesn’t sound like it because that’s where Catholic worship is exemplified, and I have never seen a statue wrongly used in same.

If you want to speak of straw men, I suggest that you not misrepresent what we believe and practice.

Second thing, and this is important…What does the second commandment say over and above the frst commandment in light of Deuteronomy 4:15?

Let’s look at the context.
[bibledrb]Deuteronomy 4:15-19[/bibledrb]
There’s not a single thing in that passage that in any way applies to our Catholic faith, though it appears that you wish it did because that might validate your argument, but since it is not…

Nowhere does that tell us that images are wrong in worship. That’s more a Taliban style Muslim thing than anything Christian. Even so…it specifically condemns worship of those things listed and here again…since we do not worship any images then you are back to my refutation as above.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

As a matter of curiosity, I would like to ask cling2cross why he clings to a ‘cross’?

Does his church have a cross on top?

Is there a cross inside the church?

I’m just curious as to why a cross is perfectly acceptable to have and for people to be bowing to it and all. A cross is as much an ‘image’ as anything else, isn’t it??

I mean, it doesn’t say, “and make nothing for yourselves except a cross” in Scripture, right?

 

[Church_Militant]

As a matter of curiosity, I would like to ask cling2cross why he clings to a ‘cross’?

Does his church have a cross on top?

Is there a cross inside the church?

I’m just curious as to why a cross is perfectly acceptable to have and for people to be bowing to it and all. A cross is as much an ‘image’ as anything else, isn’t it??

I mean, it doesn’t say, “and make nothing for yourselves except a cross” in Scripture, right?

 

[Timothy17]

Protestant friends, I do smell a hint of self-righteousness. At the very least, using images in worship has never been linked with that danger; pretending you know more and understand better that Bible which the one and same Catholic Church did protect, spread and compile is a bit presumptuous. Surely if Catholics were so corrupt in their worship they would have had no qualms editing the Bible to remove or alter any passages that might be interpreted as prohibiting the use of images in their worship. Clearly you do not believe the Catholic Church would or did do so as you reverence the Bible as the infallible word of God, thereby affirming your faith (although indirectly) in the Holy Catholic Church. The Church felt no need to manipulate scripture because they were as confident then as they are today that they had the correct interpretation, just as they were sure they had the correct books to be included in the canon of sacred scripture.

 

[Cling2Cross]

You have not answered my questions so I will ask them again…

Firstly - Where were you commanded to bow before a shrine to worship? AGAIN…I am not saying you worship the shrine itself…I am saying that you use it to worship as if its physical presence is important. That is the key. I keep being told on here that I am saying that you worship the shrine or whatever. Please, stop making this accusation.

Secondly…what does the second commandment say over and above the first commandment…

• Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
• Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:3-5)

What is it saying? That is the question.

Also, I would like to say this…the Old Testament is much more physical in nature as we have a tabernacle that is used, an ark, temple, sacrifices, etc. BUT, the second commandment was given to Israel at the same time as he was instructing Israel to make an ark, build a temple, build a tabernacle, etc. So, then, I ask again in light of this…what is the second commandment saying?

Now, Jesus says for the church and the New Testament era,

**Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. (John 4:21 KJV)

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. (John 4:23 KJV)**

Please answer the two questions underlined.

C2C

NOTE: Please do not take issue to people kneeling in prayer (before a bed), etc as if their motivations are the same as a Catholic has in kneeling before a statue in prayer. I need no cross, no image, no statue, no shrine to pray and I believe it is wrong to do so according to the second commandment. I “cling to the cross” simply means that I cling to the sacrifice made once for all for my salvation…that was another accusation made which attempts to side step the issue and throw attention on the one asking these important questions.

 

[DCNBILL]

You have not answered my questions so I will ask them again…

Firstly - Where were you commanded to bow before a shrine to worship? AGAIN…I am not saying you worship the shrine itself…I am saying that you use it to worship as if its physical presence is important. That is the key. I keep being told on here that I am saying that you worship the shrine or whatever. Please, stop making this accusation.

Secondly…what does the second commandment say over and above the first commandment…

• Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
• Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:3-5)

What is it saying? That is the question.

Also, I would like to say this…the Old Testament is much more physical in nature as we have a tabernacle that is used, an ark, temple, sacrifices, etc. BUT, the second commandment was given to Israel at the same time as he was instructing Israel to make an ark, build a temple, build a tabernacle, etc. So, then, I ask again in light of this…what is the second commandment saying?

Now, Jesus says for the church and the New Testament era,

**Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. (John 4:21 KJV)

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. (John 4:23 KJV)**

Please answer the two questions underlined.

C2C

NOTE: Please do not take issue to people kneeling in prayer (before a bed), etc as if their motivations are the same as a Catholic has in kneeling before a statue in prayer. I need no cross, no image, no statue, no shrine to pray and I believe it is wrong to do so according to the second commandment. I “cling to the cross” simply means that I cling to the sacrifice made once for all for my salvation…that was another accusation made which attempts to side step the issue and throw attention on the one asking these important questions.

To answer firstly - No where.

To answer secondly - This is saying not to worship things, anything created is not to be worshiped or adored.

In light of the implications that you seem to be making here, how would you reconcile Numbers 21:8-9 regarding the serpant on the pole?

 

[panevino]

kjv EXo25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Kjv num 21: 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the standard: and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived.

above Viewed positvely in NT

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;

 

[Church_Militant]

You have not answered my questions so I will ask them again…

Firstly - Where were you commanded to bow before a shrine to worship?

AGAIN…I am not saying you worship the shrine itself…I am saying that you use it to worship as if its physical presence is important. That is the key. I keep being told on here that I am saying that you worship the shrine or whatever. Please, stop making this accusation.I’ll answer that just as soon as you show me where the Bible says that anything that we believe and practice has to be found in its pages.

Secondly…what does the second commandment say over and above the first commandment

…

• Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
• Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:3-5)

What is it saying? That is the question.Since we do not bow down to them to serve them it doesn’t apply. It’s your misinterpretation of the passage that is the problem…not our practice.

Try to pretend that you have as much God-given common sense as most of us Catholics here at CAF and deal with the reality instead of your trumped up allegations and doctrinal errors.

Also, I would like to say this…the Old Testament is much more physical in nature as we have a tabernacle that is used, an ark, temple, sacrifices, etc. BUT, the second commandment was given to Israel at the same time as he was instructing Israel to make an ark, build a temple, build a tabernacle, etc. So, then, I ask again in light of this…what is the second commandment saying?

I beg to differ. The Ark was not commanded until well after the commandments were given, and since those constructions did not displease God then it’s clear that God did not deny images in worship. Gosh…even the brass serpent was lifted up as a type of Christ, (the NT says so), and even that image was created by the command of God.

Now, Jesus says for the church and the New Testament era,

**Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. (John 4:21 KJV)

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. (John 4:23 KJV)**

We have no problem with what these verses say, though I seriously doubt that what passes for “liturgy” in your community would meet an objective test versus the New Testament. Maybe you should give that some thought and research.

Please answer the two questions underlined.

Already did.

NOTE: Please do not take issue to people kneeling in prayer (before a bed), etc as if their motivations are the same as a Catholic has in kneeling before a statue in prayer. I need no cross, no image, no statue, no shrine to pray and I believe it is wrong to do so according to the second commandment. I “cling to the cross” simply means that I cling to the sacrifice made once for all for my salvation…that was another accusation made which attempts to side step the issue and throw attention on the one asking these important questions.

Oh…so your own community’s practices are exempt from the same tests that you expect Catholics to subject our own to?!

That’s unrighteous.

What you think you need or don’t need, (And I point out that we Catholics do not “need” any of that either, but we have them. Praise Be To God!) is irrelevant to this discussion. What is at issue here is your gross misinterpretation of both the scriptures

Charitable souls have patiently sought to offer you correction, and rest assured that now that you have been confronted with the truth, you will answer for it accordingly if you persist in your errant contention.

The fact that your errant modern post reformation community, (whichever one it happens to be) has been refuted and called to repentance for some 500 years by the Catholic Church and you persist in refusing to hear is on your own heads.

You’ll forgive me if I move away from standing near you when we stand before the Lord. and Catholic belief and practice.

 

[JustaServant]

(My emphasis!)

I see this as a challenge to Protestants - well, those who want to live under the Law of Moses, anyway.

“Everything is permissible” - as long as it leads to God, and not away from Him. Maybe you didn’t get to that verse yet (you cited the same chapter).

Glad you pointed that out about the words any ***likeness of anything *** in the verse our poor banned friend cited. Using that logic, all forms of art should be forbidden.

 

[Newbie2]

Interesting that the image of the cross, prominant in many protestant churches, is never critisized as a form of idolatry.

 

[juliamajor]

I do not believe that you worship the statue (maybe some do)…but I believe you worship against the second commandment. Therefore, this would be something serious.

What the heck does that mean?

 

[juliamajor]

So the likenesses that I see painted all over televangelists palaces are forbidden, evil , wrong?Have you complained to TBN Is idolatry limited to images that Catholics/Orthodox use ? How about the worship of the quick buck. the grasping evangelists with "prayer " towels?The gospel of prosperity is not idolaltry?.The nativist worship and enshrinement of all things American is not idolatry?

 

[panevino]

Kjv num 21: 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the standard: and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived.

above Viewed positvely in NT

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;

the idolatory commited under Aaron is pretty clear - the Calf was considered a God.

Ex 32:1When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “**Come, make us gods **who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

2Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods,b O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

Eusebius history of church Chapter XVIII (written early 300’s)
For there stands upon an elevated stone, by the gates of her house, a brazen image of a woman kneeling, with her hands stretched out, as if she were praying. Opposite this is another upright image of a man, made of the same material, clothed decently in a double cloak, and extending his hand toward the woman. …
3. They say that this statue is an image of Jesus. It has remained to our day, so that we ourselves also saw it when we were staying in the city.4. Nor is it strange that those of the Gentiles who, of old, were benefited by our Saviour, should have done such things, since we have learned also that the likenesses of his apostles Paul and Peter, and of Christ himself, are preserved in paintings the ancients being accustomed, as it is likely, according to a habit of the Gentiles, to pay this kind of honor indiscriminately to those regarded by them as deliverers.

I note that Eusebius was weary about images and concerns of it turning into idolatory, but the above shows a comfort in knowing that such a statue exists. I’ve even read that the statue may not of actually been of Jesus, however this does not change the fact Eusebius and others thought it was and dod not scream for its demolition.

 

[JustaServant]

I was raised Catholic, left for twenty years, and then returned. So, I have more than a little experience across the Tiber.
When I was a Baptist, I would hear this accusation, of ‘idol worship’ all the time and corrected it more than once. Even as a lapsed Catholic, I knew it not to be true. I personally have NEVER seen, in my youth or now, a Catholic ‘worship’ a statue. Catholics have pictures or statues of Jesus and other significant figures in our religious life- not to worship, but as a gentle reminder of that person or event. (Much like a picture of your parents on your dresser or mantle or hallway wall.) Catholics worship with all senses. We have incense (smell); chanting & beautiful hymns (hearing); rosary beads, anointing of Holy Oils, Holy Water, the sign of the Cross (touch); beautiful statutes (sight); and Holy Eucharist, the Body & Blood of Christ (taste). These are only a few of the ways in which Catholics worship God.
Even Luther never made an accusation of ‘idol worship’ against the Catholic Church.
What I find amusing is that evangelicals are far more guilty of idolitry than any Catholic. When pictures of Jesus are shown in a Sunday School book or down at the local evangelical Family Bookstore, He looks more like Barry Gibb of the BeeGees than the Son of God. I heard of (didn’t witness myself) a fundamentalist Baptist church in the South which held a procession (very Catholic) holding the Bible up and proclaiming “this (the Bible, specifally the KJV) is the stone cut without hands” (quoting Daniel). The person who witnessed this said it chilled him to the bone and never went back to that church.
And Catholics are the idolitars?
We are physical beings and therefore must express things in a physical way, especially worship. Statues and pictures are merely part of that.

 

[LittleSoldier]

What the heck does that mean?

Oh, I’m sure I can answer your question! Let’s see now, the quote is:

I do not believe that you worship the statue (maybe some do)…but I believe you worship against the second commandment. Therefore, this would be something serious.

OK, he means that Catholics don’t worship the statue, well maybe some Catholics do, but not Catholics as a whole, well I mean minus the ones that really do worship statues…but Catholics worship the Second Commandment…wait, that’s not what he wrote, we don’t worship the Second Commandment, oh wait, that’s not right either…wow, this is harder than I thought! Catholics worship against the Second Commandment! Uh, well I guess that he means er, uh…this is something serious about something Catholics do, so it must be important, right? So we worship not statues, well some do, but I guess they don’t count, so uh, er, uh…

Just what the heck does that mean???

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[SuperSailor]

In the book of Deuteronomy, we find the following passage…

"Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, "lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, (Deuteronomy 4:15-16 NKJV)

This can be tied to the second of the ten commandments (yes, ten…Deut 10:4) which is…

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, (Exodus 20:4-5 NKJV)

This commandment comes after the first commandment about Who to worship…the second being - HOW to worship. Nowhere in scripture are we sanctioned to make images for use in our worship of or prayer to God…for the purpose of avoiding this danger…

I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images. (Isaiah 42:8 NKJV)

God is a spirit - and thay that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth…John 4:24.

I guess, I see this as a challenge to practices in the Catholic Church. Your thoughts.

God did not forbid the religious usage of statues; He forbade the worship of statues. There is a difference between the two. In one Bible passage, we read of an instance when God commanded the making of statues, “You shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub at one end and one cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim of one piece with the mercy seat at its two ends. The cherubim shall have their wings spread upward, covering the mercy seat with their wings and facing one another; the faces of the cherubim are to be turned toward the mercy seat.” [Exodus 25:18-20]

In Numbers 21:8-9, we read, “And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a poisonous serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten shall look at it and live.’ So Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole; and whenever a serpent bit someone, that person would look at the serpent of bronze and live.”

This serpent on a pole was symbolic, represent Jesus Christ on the Holy Cross. Equally, when Catholics look at a crucifix or a picture of Jesus on the Cross, they are reminded that the Lord Jesus is their Saviour. He is the way, the truth and the life. No one lives unless he goes through Jesus Christ. As the serpent on the pole was part of a Jewish religious ritual, the crucifix is part of the Catholic liturgy.

If a mother dies in childbirth, her picture is the only thing that the child has to communicate to him what his mother looked like. This does not mean that the child adores his mother. The picture serves as a reminder.

Equally, Jesus left this earth before all of us were born. A painting of Jesus serves the purpose of reminding us of what He looked like. It serves the purpose of reminding us to adore Jesus, to obey Him, to serve Him, to plea to Him on behalf of others, etc…

Pictures and Statues of saints remind us of their lives, their virtues and the blessings they received from God. The objects remind us that we can pray to the Saints in the sense of asking them to intercede before God on our behalf. For who is in a better position to obtain a favor from God than the Saints who are face to face with God? This certainly does not mean that we adore the Saints. Nor does it mean that we are praying to the Saints in the hope of obtaining the favors from them; the favors come from God through the intercession of the Saints.

When a Catholic bows or kneels before the picture or statue of a saint, this is no different than when a person bows or kneels in the presence of the king of a nation. It is a way of showing respect towards the saint who has been elevated before God.

The Catholic Church throughout its history, like other Christian churches, has always condemned all forms of idolatry. Catholics know that objects are not gods to be worshipped. This truth is taught to them from the moment that they can walk.

As for the making of religious objects to remind Catholics of what is Divine, Sacred, holy and invisible, such is encouraged in the Holy Bible.