Using NFP with a contracepting spouse

[Wojo42]

Hi, My wife and I have recently had our third child in two years, (first pregnancy was twins) and now my wife is very scared of getting pregnant again. We used an NFP method in between pregnancies for about 15 months and it worked, but we only had intercourse about once or twice a month each month. Just recently after the birth of child three my wife secretly went out and got the Paragard IUD inserted by her ob/gyn without telling me. She said she has been pregnant for most of our marriage and she doesn’t want to get pregnant again for at least two or three years. This pregnancy was rough on her body and she was in a lot of pain for most of it. I told her I was mad that she got the IUD and that she shouldn’t have done it without discussing it with me. I told her it would be sinful for me to have intercourse with her. She said she doesn’t want to have it removed and part of the reason for getting it was she wanted to be able to have intercourse with me when she felt like it. She said having intercourse on “NFP safe days” has not been satisfying for her and she has not enjoyed intercourse with me the last couple of years. If she does have it removed she said she refuses to have intercourse with me because she doesn’t want to get pregnant again for awhile. If she doesn’t have it removed can I still have intercourse with her if i chart her with NFP and only have intercourse on “safe days” thus avoiding a possible conception and abortifacient aspect? Or do/should I have to abstain for the duration that she has the IUD in?

 

[Pug]

You might find this Q&A from Fr. Serpa helpful.

Myself, I might consider what you said, that she won’t have sex with you for 2 or 3 years without the IUD, but she will have sex if she wears the IUD, as something you need to figure out what it really means. What is she saying about you as a couple, her wishes, your wishes? Maybe it is just fear on her part and that is it. You might want to figure out what it is and address it.

 

[dailey]

I can relate. I told my husband that I no longer wanted to used ABC a couple years ago. He was not happy about it. I guess I could have just gone along with my husbands request to be the one to used the contraceptive so the sin didn’t fall on me. However, that just didn’t fly with me. Felt wrong, like I was “having my cake and eating it too”. We practice NFP. While my husband is not crazy about it, he knows how important my religion is to me.

 

[jackiem]

I’m far from marriage, but I see these kinds of posts often. It seems that most say if the person insists on contraception it is on them not on you and you can engage in sex. I always thought this sounds strange to me. When you are married, aren’t you supposed to help get your spouse to heaven? Partaking in sex seems to be a like an accomplice to their sin, I’m curious why people say it is ok to engage in sex and assist your spouse in committing a serious sin.

 

[1ke]

The IUD alters all of the fertility signs, therefore it is not possible to chart NFP with an IUD present.

IUDs have the further issues of being not a contraceptive, but rather an abortifacient, in many cases.

I suggest you seek guidance from your priest on the matter of relations with your wife. It is not impossible to have relations while she contracepts (see the document Vademecum for Confessors) but it is not for anyone here to tell you “yea” or “nay”… that is the realm of your pastor in confession.

 

[fpt]

Hi, My wife and I have recently had our third child in two years, (first pregnancy was twins) and now my wife is very scared of getting pregnant again. We used an NFP method in between pregnancies for about 15 months and it worked, but we only had intercourse about once or twice a month each month. Just recently after the birth of child three my wife secretly went out and got the Paragard IUD inserted by her ob/gyn without telling me. She said she has been pregnant for most of our marriage and she doesn’t want to get pregnant again for at least two or three years. This pregnancy was rough on her body and she was in a lot of pain for most of it. I told her I was mad that she got the IUD and that she shouldn’t have done it without discussing it with me. I told her it would be sinful for me to have intercourse with her. She said she doesn’t want to have it removed and part of the reason for getting it was she wanted to be able to have intercourse with me when she felt like it. She said having intercourse on “NFP safe days” has not been satisfying for her and she has not enjoyed intercourse with me the last couple of years. If she does have it removed she said she refuses to have intercourse with me because she doesn’t want to get pregnant again for awhile. If she doesn’t have it removed can I still have intercourse with her if i chart her with NFP and only have intercourse on “safe days” thus avoiding a possible conception and abortifacient aspect? Or do/should I have to abstain for the duration that she has the IUD in?

For information.

My comments

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR THE FAMILY
VADEMECUM FOR CONFESSORS CONCERNING SOME ASPECTS OF THE MORALITY OF CONJUGAL LIFE

1. Special difficulties are presented by cases of cooperation in the sin of a spouse who voluntarily renders the unitive act infecund. In the first place, it is necessary to distinguish cooperation in the proper sense ** to define correctly???]**, from violence or unjust imposition on the part of one of the spouses, which the other spouse in fact cannot resist.46, 561).] This cooperation ** cooperation in the proper sense???] /U]can be licit when the three following conditions are jointly met:
   
   when the action of the cooperating spouse is not already illicit in itself;47 ** [to define???]**
   when proportionally grave reasons exist **??] **for cooperating in the sin of the other spouse;
   when one is seeking to help the other spouse to desist from such conduct (patiently, with prayer, charity and dialogue; although not necessarily in that moment, nor on every single occasion).

14. Furthermore, it is necessary to carefully evaluate the question of cooperation in evil when recourse is made to means which can have an abortifacient effect.48

(46) “Holy Church knows full well that not infrequently, one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin” (Pius XI, Enc. Casti Connubii, AAS 22 $[1930$

(47) 3 Cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 2795, 3634.

(48) “From the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. **Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it” ** [explain???]/B] (John Paul II, Enc. Evangelium Vitae, March 25, 1995, n. 74).

 

[dailey]

I’m far from marriage, but I see these kinds of posts often. It seems that most say if the person insists on contraception it is on them not on you and you can engage in sex. I always thought this sounds strange to me. When you are married, aren’t you supposed to help get your spouse to heaven? Partaking in sex seems to be a like an accomplice to their sin, I’m curious why people say it is ok to engage in sex and assist your spouse in committing a serious sin.

Excellent post, I agree.

The Catholic religion does allow for the spouse that is against ABC to continue to have sex with their husbands/wifes (if they won’t reconsider). However, the church ALSO states that you are obligated to try to pursue your non-complying spouse to change their views on ABC. That is where, IMO, many Catholics fail because they most likely throw their hands up in the air in defeat…and never try to convert their spouse.

 

[CrimsonThorn]

I’m far from marriage, but I see these kinds of posts often. It seems that most say if the person insists on contraception it is on them not on you and you can engage in sex. I always thought this sounds strange to me. When you are married, aren’t you supposed to help get your spouse to heaven? Partaking in sex seems to be a like an accomplice to their sin, I’m curious why people say it is ok to engage in sex and assist your spouse in committing a serious sin.

I’m more curious as to why couples do not discuss important issues like these before getting married.

 

[SusanneT]

Hi, My wife and I have recently had our third child in two years, (first pregnancy was twins) and now my wife is very scared of getting pregnant again. We used an NFP method in between pregnancies for about 15 months and it worked, but we only had intercourse about once or twice a month each month. Just recently after the birth of child three my wife secretly went out and got the Paragard IUD inserted by her ob/gyn without telling me. She said she has been pregnant for most of our marriage and she doesn’t want to get pregnant again for at least two or three years. This pregnancy was rough on her body and she was in a lot of pain for most of it. I told her I was mad that she got the IUD and that she shouldn’t have done it without discussing it with me. I told her it would be sinful for me to have intercourse with her. She said she doesn’t want to have it removed and part of the reason for getting it was she wanted to be able to have intercourse with me when she felt like it. She said having intercourse on “NFP safe days” has not been satisfying for her and she has not enjoyed intercourse with me the last couple of years. If she does have it removed she said she refuses to have intercourse with me because she doesn’t want to get pregnant again for awhile. If she doesn’t have it removed can I still have intercourse with her if i chart her with NFP and only have intercourse on “safe days” thus avoiding a possible conception and abortifacient aspect? Or do/should I have to abstain for the duration that she has the IUD in?

We have friends who do this they chart, and only have intercourse when the NFP rules say it is safe but she insists on also using contraception. It’s not ideal but it works for them.

 

[1ke]

I know that you probably don’t agree with condoms either, but surely they would be better than the abortificient IUD.

This would not be allowable, morally. This would be active participation in contraception, not passive.

Better than having 12 abortions a year.

The fact that the IUD has the potential to be abortifacient in some situations in no way justifies a statement such as the one above. It is an inflammatory statement, not helpful to the OP who is clearly stressed by this already.

 

[Tinaphpc]

Looks awesome, thanks mate.

 

[fpt]

In catholic doctrine, there are three cumulative conditions that have to be present, and, that we have to study separetly, in order to know if that is moral, for the husband, to be sexually active, when her wife is using tools of contraception without abortive effect).

a. “the action of the cooperating spouse is not already illicit in itself”??? For him, The condition is existing if and only if he respects the natural moral law (You know what I mean!!!)

b. proportionally grave reasons exist (adultery of wife, adultery of him, his masturbation, her masturbation , conjugal debate, conjugal violence by the speaking, conjugal physical violence, the peace of family)??? In fact, I am not sure, do you have document of church on this condition?

c. when one is seeking to help the other spouse to desist from such conduct (patiently, with prayer, charity and dialogue; although not necessarily in that moment, nor on every single occasion). Holy Church knows full well that not infrequently, one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order. In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin" (Pius XI, Enc. Casti Connubii. Easy, no comment!!!

 

[fpt]

When wife is using tools of contraception with abortive effects???,

1. " Furthermore, it is necessary to carefully evaluate the question of cooperation in evil when recourse is made to means which can have an abortifacient effect. "48 ****That means, that has to be present the same cumulative conditions that if there was no abortive effect, and more. **
   **

48 “From the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. Such cooperation occurs when an action, either by its very nature or by the form it takes in a concrete situation, can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life or a sharing in the immoral intention of the person committing it” **[explain???] **(John Paul II, Enc. Evangelium Vitae, March 25, 1995, n. 74)."

To cooperate formally = an action by its very nature (no difficulty for the husband) or by the form it takes in a concrete situation (What is the form?, ,) can be defined as a direct participation (???) in an act against innocent human life.

 

[fpt]

What is the nature of the action of husband that can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life?

What is the action of husband, by the form it takes in a concrete situation, that can be defined as a direct participation in an act against innocent human life?

It is very difficult to respond.

 

[SusanneT]

I am sorry if I sounded inflammatory or unkind, that absolutely wasn’t my intention. However, IUDs do work after conception by preventing implantation. A condom would be preferable.

But what about the diaphragm? Non abortificient and would be passive from the man’s point of view.

Yes I agreed the couple we know who do this use a diaphragm for exactly that reason - it’'s passive from the husbands point of view and there is no question of any ‘side effects’ in how a barrier works.

However it does seem to me this whole idea is open to abuse. An NFP couple who really want to avoid as these people do tend to be very conservative in confining intimacy to when they feel absolutely “safe”. But human nature says that a couple doing this would be much less restricted.

 

[sdeco]

I’m more curious as to why couples do not discuss important issues like these before getting married.

Hello, people change!! My husband and I talked about all this stuff and agreed to use NFP before marriage. After seven years of marriage and three surprise pregnancies with NFP, he said we either need to use birth control or get divorced. When I married him he was a devout Catholic who agreed to NFP. Now he’s an agnostic who wants to use birth control. How could I have possibly foreseen that this would happen?? Talking about things before marriage only goes so far. What if they change AFTER marriage??

 

[Listener]

Besides talking to a priest, it would be good to find out what brand of IUD she uses and whether or not it secretes a hormone. My understanding is that IUD’s have changed over the years and may not cause early abortions like the earlier ones probably did.

I am not familier with IUD’s, but I don’t know why the woman wouldn’t know when she was ovulating, unless she had one that secreted hormones and worked like the pill.

One of the real problems of NFP is that it’s a great thing if both spouses agree and are happy with it. However, there are always two people in a marriage, and it is impossible to make your spouse think exactly like you do.

 

[underacloud]

One of the real problems of NFP is that it’s a great thing if both spouses agree and are happy with it. However, there are always two people in a marriage, and it is impossible to make your spouse think exactly like you do.

That’s more a problem of poor catechesis (or obstinate infidelity) than an inherent issue with NFP.

I’m not saying NFP is easy…I know very well that it is not…but when a couple disagrees about using NFP, it is because one or both are going against clear Church teaching (assuming both are Catholic and should be bound by Church teaching in this matter).

 

[EasterJoy]

…One of the real problems of NFP is that it’s a great thing if both spouses agree and are happy with it. However, there are always two people in a marriage, and it is impossible to make your spouse think exactly like you do.

That is true concerning nearly everything a married couple does or decides.

 

[fpt]

To Bear or Not to Bear

equusnomveritas.blogspot.fr/2012/09/to-bear-or-not-to-bear.html

Only for information

Vademecum for Confessors Concerning Some Aspects of the Morality of Conjugal Life, where we read that

Special difficulties are presented by cases of cooperation in the sin of a spouse who voluntarily renders the unitive act infecund. In the first place, it is necessary to distinguish cooperation in the proper sense, from violence or unjust imposition on the part of one of the spouses, which the other spouse in fact cannot resist. This cooperation can be licit when the three following conditions are jointly met:

    when the action of the cooperating spouse is not already illicit in itself;
    when proportionally grave reasons exist for cooperating in the sin of the other spouse;
    when one is seeking to help the other spouse to desist from such conduct (patiently, with prayer, charity and dialogue; although not necessarily in that moment, nor on every single occasion).