Using perforated condom as birth control... moral?

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Contraception is defined as something that takes away the unitive/procreative aspects of sex. Perforated condoms do not take that away, that is why they are said to be licit for sperm sampling.
The error you make here has been explained to you many times on this thread.

Perhaps a 75% effective spermicide would not be contraceptive? Or would 60% get it over the line? What about a spermicide that has the same effectiveness as a perforated condom? Do you think it is about the volume of sperm, or the moral end?

What is being willed ?

The moral end of the act matters.
 
Double Effect is relevant in all cases where an act involves both good and evil outcomes. Life or death has no particular relevance, but makes for the most interesting and compelling examples.
Perhaps you are correct. But once again, perforated condoms are not said to be licit due to double effect. They are said to be licit due to the fact that they do not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex. If they were said to be licit because of double effect, then it would be logical to conclude that normal condoms would also be licit because of double effect. Which they clearly are not.
 
The error you make here has been explained to you many times on this thread.

Perhaps a 75% effective spermicide would not be contraceptive? Or would 60% get it over the line? What about a spermicide that has the same effectiveness as a perforated condom? Do you think it is about the volume of sperm, or the moral end?

What is being willed ?

The moral end of the act matters.
You are ignoring that fact that it was not I who has said that perforated condoms do not take away the unitive/procreative aspects of sex, while spermicide does. This is what is said by the theologians who have spoken on the matter (one of which I have posted), and the USCCB who condone the use of perforated condoms for sperm sampling. I am merely going by their claims that spermicide takes away unitive/procreative aspects, and perforated condoms do not take away unitive/procreative aspects.

Once again, the moral end" is avoidance of pregnancy. If there is just reason to avoid pregnancy, it is not wrong to avoid pregnancy in and of itself. Therefore it cannot be said that this is an illicit moral end.
 
You are ignoring that fact that it was not I who has said that perforated condoms do not take away the unitive/procreative aspects of sex, while spermicide does. This is what is said by the theologians who have spoken on the matter (one of which I have posted), and the USCCB who condone the use of perforated condoms for sperm sampling. I am merely going by their claims that spermicide takes away unitive/procreative aspects, and perforated condoms do not take away unitive/procreative aspects.
Did the USCCB comment on the licitness of using a perforated condom to reduce the chance of conception. No. You are extrapolating.

I have explained many times that acts that outwardly appear identical can differ entirely in their morality. I’m sure you understand that shooting a gun to save yourself, even if you might kill another, can be acceptable, whereas doing **the exact same thing **with “murder in your mind” is immoral. Do you disagree with that?
 
For those who claim this is utilizing double effect principle. How does it for in this part?

How does having sperm counted meet this definition?

the good effect outweighs the bad effect in circumstances sufficiently grave to justify causing the bad effect and the agent exercises due diligence to minimize the harm.[2]
I think the reason they are permitted is because they are no longer a contraceptive. A poor example is those inflatable circle things are not “life preservers” if they have holes in them.

The pretend couple wants to use them as a contraceptive.

They cannot be a contraceptive and not a contraceptive at the same time. If thevcouple is using them to limit fertility, then yes they are using it as s contraceptive.
 
… But once again, perforated condoms are not said to be licit due to double effect. They are said to be licit due to the fact that they do not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex. If they were said to be licit because of double effect, then it would be logical to conclude that normal condoms would also be licit because of double effect. Which they clearly are not.
The physical item itself (like a gun) is neither licit nor illicit. Acts are what we are judging, and we do so by assessing:
  1. The Intention giving rise to the act;
  2. The Moral Object (or proximate end) of the act itself;
  3. The Circumstances incl consequences.
You are ceasing your analysis by considering 50% of item 2.

Tell me this – is a quiet voice in your head telling you that your conclusion does not pass the “sniff test” and must be wrong, but you don’t see how, or do you feel your reasoning all makes sense and your pretty sure you have the right answer?
 
Contraception is defined as something that takes away the unitive/procreative aspects of sex, not something that avoids pregnancy. Otherwise there would be no difference between that and NFP. Perforated condoms do not take away the unitive/procreative aspects, that is why they are said to be licit for sperm sampling, and that is why they thus cannot be called contraception.
While the whole perforated condom method seems like a scrupulous approach to my mind… the intention behind it is to collect a workable amount of semen… not to limit the semen to avoid pregnancy. To use a perforated condom with the intention of limiting semen to avoid pregnancy is contraception.
 
So if the act of wearing a perforated condom during intercourse does not frustrate the unitive or procreative aspect of the marital act, then it seems like it would conclude that if you have a just reason to wear one, it cannot be a sin.

Avoiding pregnancy for just reason, is a just reason.
If wearing a perforated condom does not, as you say, frustrate the unitive aspect of sex, why are we having this conversation, since frustrating the unitive aspect of sex is exactly what you are proposing? 🤷
 
Once again, the moral end" is avoidance of pregnancy. If there is just reason to avoid pregnancy, it is not wrong to avoid pregnancy in and of itself. Therefore it cannot be said that this is an illicit moral end.
No, that is a (rather distant) goal. Does that goal alone justify all manner of acts conducted in its service? There are licit means to pursue that goal, and also illicit ones.

And before you quote the Theologian or Bishop’s conference again, I remind you that neither party addressed the use of perforated condoms to reduce the chance of conception.
 
No, it is not moral.

Using a perforated condom for medical testing purposes falls under the principle of double effect.

Using it as contraception does not.

ncbcenter.org/document.doc?id=132
Thank you 1ke for addressing the moral principle that covers this debate.

As has been addressed, using a perforated condom to collect samples for medical testing is not officially aproved by the Church, but is considered moral by many theologians. It is moral for a couple of key reasons, working with double effect:

a) The intention of the act is to collect samples for medical testing. This is itself morally good.

b) The good effect (collecting samples) is considered proportional to the bad affect (reduced chance of conceiving).

Compare this with the other suggested use by the OP:

a) The intention is to lessen the chance of pregnancy while having sex. This is by definition contraception. The intended end is morally bad already.

b) The test of proportionality is irrelevant - there is no good effect to weigh against the bad.

I hope that clears it up.
 
Did the USCCB comment on the licitness of using a perforated condom to reduce the chance of conception. No. You are extrapolating.
No. I never claimed they did. All I claimed is that they have explained that it does not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex. That is why Im asking this question and wondering about the moral theology of it. If they had said it was ok, there would be nothing further to discuss or ponder.
I have explained many times that acts that outwardly appear identical can differ entirely in their morality. I’m sure you understand that shooting a gun to save yourself, even if you might kill another, can be acceptable, whereas doing **the exact same thing **with “murder in your mind” is immoral. Do you disagree with that?
I agree, of course. But the intent in both is different. The intent in one is to save yourself, while the intent in the other is to murder an innocent person.
 
I think the reason they are permitted is because they are no longer a contraceptive. A poor example is those inflatable circle things are not “life preservers” if they have holes in them.

The pretend couple wants to use them as a contraceptive.

They cannot be a contraceptive and not a contraceptive at the same time. If thevcouple is using them to limit fertility, then yes they are using it as s contraceptive.
If it does not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex, then it is not a contraceptive. That is why it is permissible for sperm sample, while a normal condom is not. A normal condom is contraception, and contraception is NEVER ok, regardless of any circumstances.
 
No. I never claimed they did. All I claimed is that they have explained that it does not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex. That is why Im asking this question and wondering about the moral theology of it. If they had said it was ok, there would be nothing further to discuss or ponder.

I agree, of course. But the intent in both is different. The intent in one is to save yourself, while the intent in the other is to murder an innocent person.
The “proximate end” is different. I can murder in circumstances where the intent was sel-defence. Or I can do the same deed with same result, also motivated by self-defence, without it being murder. The dead person is not an innocent either way. When you understand that, you will also see the immorality of the scenario you described.
 
If it does not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex, then it is not a contraceptive.
This is like saying that because condoms and the Pill do not have 100% effectiveness rates, they cannot be considered contraceptive. They still allow some possibility of procreation.

This is, of course, nonsense.

They are contraceptive because the use of them is intended to reduce the possibility of pregnancy while having sex.

The use of a perforated condom to collect samples for medical testing is not contraceptive; the result of reducing the chance of pregnancy is not intended.

The use of a perforated condom to reduce the chance of pregancy (while having sex) is contraceptive; the intended end is reducing the chance of pregnancy. It is immoral in its intended ends.
 
If it does not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex, then it is not a contraceptive. That is why it is permissible for sperm sample, while a normal condom is not. A normal condom is contraception, and contraception is NEVER ok, regardless of any circumstances.
Remember also, ‘unitive’ is not just a meeting of sperm and womb… it is the total self giving of man and woman. If I served up a peanut on a plate to my husband for dinner at night to satisfy my duty to feed him, that’s a whole different thing to giving him the peanut because it was the only food I had in the cupboard because we were broke or in a war zone or something like that.
 
The physical item itself (like a gun) is neither licit nor illicit.

Acts are what we are judging, and we do so by assessing:
  1. The Intention giving rise to the act;
  2. The Moral Object (or proximate end) of the act itself;
  3. The Circumstances incl consequences.
You are ceasing your analysis by considering 50% of item 2.

Tell me this – is a quiet voice in your head telling you that your conclusion does not pass the “sniff test” and must be wrong, but you don’t see how, or do you feel your reasoning all makes sense and your pretty sure you have the right answer?
Ok, lets break it down this way.

We KNOW that using a perforated condom for sperm sample is licit. It looks like this:
  1. Intent - To collect semen sample
  2. Moral Object - Using a perforated condom during intercourse
  3. Consequence - semen sample was collected
All 3 of those things have to be licit in order for the whole act to be licit.

Therefore we can establish that collecting semen sample, in and of itself, is licit. We can also establish that using perforated condom during intercourse, in and of itself, is licit. We can also establish that it is licit for the semen sample to have been collected. All those things are licit, in and of themselves, so when you put them all together to form an act, the act is licit.

We also KNOW that using NFP to avoid pregnancy for just reason is licit. It looks like this:
  1. Intent - To avoid pregnancy for just reason
  2. Moral Object - Abstinence during fertile times
  3. Consequence - Pregnancy was avoided for the just reason
Once again, all 3 of these must be licit for the whole act to be licit.

Therefore, we can establish that avoiding pregnancy for just reason, in and of itself, is licit. We can also establish that abstinence during fertile times, in and of itself, is licit. We can also establish that it is licit for a pregnancy to have been avoided for just cause. All those are licit in and of themselves, so the whole act of using NFP to avoid pregnancy for just reason, is licit.

Now lets change it up a bit for an act that we KNOW is NOT licit. We know that using a condom during intercourse to avoid pregnancy for just reason is not licit. This is what it looks like:
  1. Intent - To avoid pregnancy for just reason
  2. Moral Object - Using a condom (not perforated) during intercourse
  3. Consequence - Pregnancy was avoided for the just reason
Again, all three of these need to be licit in order for the whole act to be licit.

We have already established from the blue, that avoiding pregnancy for just reason, in and of itself, is licit. We have also already established from the blue that it is licit for a pregnancy to have been avoided for just reasons. However, the moral object, using a condom during intercourse, is intrinsically wrong (because frustrates the unitive/procreative aspects of sex). Since one of these 3 things is wrong, the whole act becomes wrong. So that is why having intercourse with a condom to avoid pregnancy for just reason is wrong.

So what does using a perforated condom to avoid pregnancy for just reasons look like? It looks like this:
  1. Intent - To avoid pregnancy for just reason
  2. Moral Object - Using a perforated condom during intercourse
  3. Consequence - Pregnancy was avoided for the just cause
Once again, we’ve already established from the blue that the intent and the consequence both check out. Now we must determine whether the moral object checks out - that is, using a perforated condom during intercourse. But look at the red. We have also already established, back in the red, that the moral object of using a perforated condom during intercourse checks out!

So if we have established that the intent is licit, the moral object is licit, and the consequence is licit, then, as stated earlier, the whole act is licit.

(PS - The red is per the USCCB and other Catholic Theologians. The Church has not officially spoken on the matter either way.)
 
If wearing a perforated condom does not, as you say, frustrate the unitive aspect of sex, why are we having this conversation, since frustrating the unitive aspect of sex is exactly what you are proposing? 🤷
It is not as I say. Im just going off of other reliable sources, like Jimmy Atkin and the USCCB.

Either something does or does not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex. Using a perforated condom for semen sample does not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex anymore than using it for any other reason. Either it takes it away or it doesnt. 🤷
 
I think the fatal flaw to this issue is the idea that there is something about a perforated condom that could inhibit reproduction.

I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think there is any "contraceptive " benefit in wearing a perforated condom. It just retains some sperm but plenty gets through. Even regular condoms are only 75% affective and I’d think a perforated one would go down close to zero.

I am thinking this is why it’s aloud and also why no one uses them as a “contraceptive” loophole.
 
It is not as I say. Im just going off of other reliable sources, like Jimmy Atkin and the USCCB.

Either something does or does not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex. Using a perforated condom for semen sample does not take away the unitive/procreative aspect of sex anymore than using it for any other reason. Either it takes it away or it doesnt. 🤷
It reduces the chances of procreation, and according to some (many) moral theologians, this is an acceptable bad effect under the principle of double effect.

The bad effect is:

a) not intended

and

b) proportionally lesser than the good effect.

Your example of using it to reduce chances of procreation do not meet these criteria of double effect. The effect is directly intended.
 
Who is more open to life? A married couple who has 2 kids, and uses NFP to prevent another conception from taking place, or a couple with 5 kids who used condoms in between pregnancies?
 
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