Using self defence against a pregnant woman?

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levi86 said:
If one was to be violently attacked by a women they new was pregnant could they morally use deadly force against that women?

My personal opinion is that lethal self defence would not be acceptable, as it would place the value of the victim’s life above that of the unborn child.

Any thoughts?
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So levi86, what’s your :twocents: now that you’ve heard all of this??
 
jc-servant said:
I hope the situation never comes up for you.

Similar questions get asked during police candidate interviews and during the academy. We also had to physically go through scenarios which included things like a pregnant attacker. A child or pregnant woman can shoot you just as dead as an adult male (and some officers have paid the price for hesitating). It is not as farfetched as it might sound initially.

I believe it is prudent for all people to look inside themselves in advance of an emergency and really think about what they are capable of doing or would never do in order to defend themselves or another person. We probably have more guns per person in the US than they do in Iraq, so an unarmed conflict can turn deadly pretty quickly. I believe it helps us not to freeze in an emergency when we have done some advance thinking/training about a subject.

I personally had to arrest a very pregnant woman from a traffic stop. Sad situation having to take down a pregnant woman, but luckily she didn’t try to use a weapon while fighting me. I also arrested a female burglar who appeared pregnant and did have a weapon, but it turned out she had delivered earlier that same week. We did have to draw down on her, but she dropped the tire iron. It turned out she was coerced into the crime by her horrible boyfriend.
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I d like to think that I would use my feet.Not to kick her but to run like a jack rabbit.Not too many folks could catch me,that I know and would put money on,especially if I was all juiced up on adrenaline.

Being in martial arts near 20 years,thats the lesson I ve learned.My running routine far exceeds my martial arts training as a superior means of survival LOL.And call me soft,but I could not bear to hurt an unborn child(yeah I am a Dad),if I could’nt run I d most likly take a beating in that situation(that is ofcourse if I could’nt pop her in the nose).
 
teachccd said:
LOL! Interesting thread,isn’t it? I guess when you’re stuck home with the flu you get sucked into these interesting topics.😃
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Yeah I know, but every now and then one of the voices in my head does actually come up with something meaningful 😃

Actually the reason I ask is because I am doing an internship with a social services department. The other day a pregnant lady attacked one of the case workers; I held her back by the shoulders, terrified of causing any harm to held child. Just thought id take the scenario one step further.
So levi86, what’s your :twocents: now that you’ve heard all of this??
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Personally I would put the life of the baby above myself at any expense…
 
ProdigalSonOfOz said:
Actually the reason I ask is because I am doing an internship with a social services department. The other day a pregnant lady attacked one of the case workers; I held her back by the shoulders, terrified of causing any harm to held child. Just thought id take the scenario one step further.

Personally I would put the life of the baby above myself at any expense…
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There are simple “control holds” that you could learn in case a similar situation comes up again that involve immobilizing the arms and hands of an unarmed person. I have held men much larger than myself using such techniques. It would be more effective than just grabbing the shoulders and it causes no permanent damage. The person is only in pain if they try to resist and pull away from the hold.

I heard administrative appeals for a social services agency right after law school and it was surprising how many people got really out of hand over various entitlement benefits including supposedly “disabled” folks who wanted to fight. Our big city hearing offices had armed security, but we were on our own out in the rest of the state. Be careful during your internship!
 
jc-servant said:
I personally had to arrest a very pregnant woman from a traffic stop. Sad situation having to take down a pregnant woman, but luckily she didn’t try to use a weapon while fighting me.
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I have had to do this also.

A couple of things. First, it is theoretically possible that one would have to take action that killed the mother and baby in defense of one’s self or another. Second, it is an unlikely scenario. I would like to clarify one thing an earlier poster said about using equal force. Actually, one best use a little more than equal force. If any force is justified, then it must be a situation important enough to win and not just tie. In the event that the attacker is hurt, or her baby, then morally the law of double effect is applicable. The goal is to stop an aggressor from hurting an innocent person.

Practically speaking, one thing that is always looked at in this situation is what is known as the totality of the situation. Being pregnant is a pretty big factor in lowering how much force would be needed, unless a weapon is involved.
 
I can’t conceive of any pregnant woman for whom lethal force would be necessary, assuming she’s not armed. And…who gets in firefights with pregnant women? Do many pregnant women pull knives/guns/katana/lead pipes on you?

I’d heard of “punk mamas,” but come on!

I probably wouldn’t need to use lethal force (unless there was a gun involved), but I know martial arts. If you don’t know self defense, to the point where you can control a pregnant woman without hurting her or the baby, then you should probably run away. To enroll in a martial arts class.
 
If she is using deadly force, then yes use deadly force until the threat is removed. If need be, shoot her in the knee, then the shoulder if you have time. If not, shoot for the heart.

If she is not using deadly force then hug, she can’t hit you when you have her in a bear hug.
 
Hastrman said:
I can’t conceive of any pregnant woman for whom lethal force would be necessary, assuming she’s not armed. And…who gets in firefights with pregnant women? Do many pregnant women pull knives/guns/katana/lead pipes on you?

I’d heard of “punk mamas,” but come on!

I probably wouldn’t need to use lethal force (unless there was a gun involved), but I know martial arts. If you don’t know self defense, to the point where you can control a pregnant woman without hurting her or the baby, then you should probably run away. To enroll in a martial arts class.
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I agree,not to sound sexist but most guys I know(including myself long before martial arts)know how to brawl.I find it hard to believe that a grown man would have too much trouble just decking her as opposed to using “lethal force”,or just out running her.But I know thats one mans view,theres a lot of what ifs to this situation and its really very relative.
 
I can’t really believe what I am reading here. The Bible tells us that we fight not against people but against principalities of darkness.
I have used this in one form and found that forgiveness works the third time I apologised the person quietened down and was civil.

Another time a friend was being targeted by a person twice his size and he told me he could have fort back, could have run, but decided to stay and he said “satan I rebuke you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ”. the person was flung against the wall, came back at my friend and the third time he came my friend said the same and the person was flung against the wall and lay there crying, the spirit had left him.

God bless
littleone.
 
FightingFat said:
Here is the only place I have ever heard that in Catholic circles!
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You don’t think that a sin against charity is committed if you allow someone to kill you? Is your life worth less than the assailant’s? How many Catholic circles do you frequent? Obviously not many that might discuss “just wars”. The sanctity of human life is of the utmost importance within Catholic teachings but if a death results from the use of self defense then that death becomes a by- product of self -preservation not the intention.
 
water said:
😃 running away is a good defense.
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You would be surprised at how often thaat simple technique would work.

I remember a murder case several years ago where the defense argued self-defense because the person shot had a gun. The man was found guilty because he had the opportunity to drive away safely.
 
f one was to be violently attacked by a women they new was pregnant could they morally use deadly force against that women?
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I am not sure we are justified in responding with violence, particluarly if we could run away.
 
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