Using the Church's authority to prove the Church's authority?

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Hi

Jesus neither wrote anything revealed on him from God nor he established any church in Judea. He found no time to do that.

Neither the present Church nor the present NTBible represent Jesus.

When Saint Thomas went to Kerala, India; he followed no such Church and no such NTBible.

If Saint Thomas and his followers of that time could do without such Churches and the NTBible; that proves that both of these are not so significant.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks
 
Roman_Catholic said:
When I converted it was explained to me as being spiral instead of circular.

This was how it was basically explained to me:
  1. The Bible can be shown to be historically accurate.
  2. The Bible states that Jesus established one visible Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against and that the Holy Spirit would lead it into all truth. You do not believe it is the Catholic Church, 🤷 but you wanted a Catholic explanation so there you go.
  3. The Church, based off the historically reliable Scriptures which promises the protection from the Holy Spirit from teaching errors of faith, can then pronounce the Bible to be not just historically accurate but inerrant and authoritative (not the final authority but authoritative).
  4. The Church then is the, “pillar and bulwark of the truth.” 1 Tim 3:15
I could see how Protestantism could be seen as being circular as well, You believe that the Bible is authoritative because… the bible says so.

God bless
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The problem herein lies that the Scriptures do not paint a picture even remotely resembling what the Roman Catholic church is today and what it teaches. It’s not that the Bible is the only authority, it’s that the Catholic church does not square with this one authority. I believe that this is the biggest problem Protestants have with it today.
 
Napsack said:
The problem herein lies that the Scriptures do not paint a picture even remotely resembling what the Roman Catholic church is today and what it teaches. It’s not that the Bible is the only authority, it’s that the Catholic church does not square with this one authority. I believe that this is the biggest problem Protestants have with it today.
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How so? You should not make blanket statements that you can’t back up with examples.
 
NDfan said:
But without scripture there’d be no confirmation of that today. Sorry bogus argument.
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Without Scripture, Catholics couldn’t make the statement about the Church being the pillar of truth.
 
it does seem circular to me.

Why do men need another Authority? Jesus (pbwh) is the only teacher.

Those who submit themselves to the God of Jesus (pbwh) in the way the teacher taught wholly are those who have guided authority to interpret scripture for themselves.

If God can turn stones into descendants of Abraham (pbuh) than no one group can rightly claim authority as the spirit moves like the wind who knows where it is going or where it has been.

Communities want to state they alone have the authority because they seek authoritative power.

The truth is in humility, those who walk the way of Jesus (pbwh) and are like children seeking Gods light in all communities for this is the true church.
 
Napsack said:
The primacy of the pope. Mary being co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix.

Prove them valid with the Bible.
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Well we’ve just gone in a circle, haven’t we.

Which are you asking; that I show they do not contradict the Bible, or that they are explictly authorized in Scripture?
 
NDfan said:
But without scripture there’d be no confirmation of that today. Sorry bogus argument.
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What was the confirmation for the confessors up to the point the scripture was written?
 
Steven_John said:
it does seem circular to me.

Why do men need another Authority? Jesus (pbwh) is the only teacher.

Those who submit themselves to the God of Jesus (pbwh) in the way the teacher taught wholly are those who have guided authority to interpret scripture for themselves.

If God can turn stones into descendants of Abraham (pbuh) than no one group can rightly claim authority as the spirit moves like the wind who knows where it is going or where it has been.

Communities want to state they alone have the authority because they seek authoritative power.

The truth is in humility, those who walk the way of Jesus (pbwh) and are like children seeking Gods light in all communities for this is the true church.
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The fruits of this reasoning are 33,000 Protestant sects, and semi-Christian groups, JW, Mormonism, Christian Science, etc.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
Well we’ve just gone in a circle, haven’t we.

Which are you asking; that I show they do not contradict the Bible, or that they are explictly authorized in Scripture?
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You don’t have to show me anything. They both explicitly contradict the Bible. That’s the point. Sola Scriptura doesn’t even need to enter the issue here.
 
Napsack said:
You don’t have to show me anything. They both explicitly contradict the Bible. That’s the point. Sola Scriptura doesn’t even need to enter the issue here.
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What you’ve written does not even make sense. First you claim a Catholic dogma, the infallibility of the pope when he teaches ex cathedra, (the other two are not Catholic dogma, by the way), are contradicted by the Bible. Then you say, “sola scriptura does not even enter the issue”. Well, then why do you care if the teaching contradicts the Bible? Obviously, you care because you believe the Bible is the only religous authority Christians have, which is the doctrine of sola scriptura.

However, what you have written is not true. Please demonstrate how the infallible teachings of the Pope when he speaks in an infallible capacity contradicts the Bible.
 
Napsack said:
Well, you seem to aspire to the assumed fact that there are 33,000 different Protestant sects or denominations right?
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You didn’t answer the question. Why do you want me to list all of the Prostestant sects? Are you denying the figure? If so, please enlighten us. If not, please clarify.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
The fruits of this reasoning are 33,000 Protestant sects, and semi-Christian groups, JW, Mormonism, Christian Science, etc.
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Ok then, provided people are all willing t be under one label all is truth that comes from it?

Inside the Catholic church people differ in their understanding and life practice.

So what comes from the claim of authority?

Outside of the Catholic church people share life practice as that of teaching in the Catholic church.

What comes from claims of only authority can be division of the one true Church.

Again God can raise descendants of Abraham (pbuh) from rocks, surely these will be of the true church, who can speak against the works of God.

Peace and blessings
 
Why does the pope offer fallible teachings and infallible teachings if he is head of the church and it holds authority, surely true authority would only offer absolute truth.

If one hold authority they should not lead people any other way.

Jesus (pbwh) offers us truth, and is the authority, shatan offers truth seeming teachings but they don’t last.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
You didn’t answer the question. Why do you want me to list all of the Prostestant sects? Are you denying the figure? If so, please enlighten us. If not, please clarify.
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The point was made (by you) that there are 33,000 different Protestant denominations in light of the reasoning of interpretation of Scripture (outside of what Catholicism says). I just wanted you to enlighten us on what those 33,000 are since you seem to believe that they all have a different and separate interpretation of Scripture.
 
Steven_John said:
Ok then, provided people are all willing t be under one label all is truth that comes from it?

Inside the Catholic church people differ in their understanding and life practice.

So what comes from the claim of authority?

Outside of the Catholic church people share life practice as that of teaching in the Catholic church.

What comes from claims of only authority can be division of the one true Church.

Again God can raise descendants of Abraham (pbuh) from rocks, surely these will be of the true church, who can speak against the works of God.

Peace and blessings
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The Catholic claim of authority comes from an unbroken succession of apostolic teaching that ends in Jesus. It is understood that the Muslim religion has a different teaching of Jesus. But that is for another thread. To answer the question, it comes from our claim to know Jesus’ teachings.

The claim of authority does not cause division, it brings unity. How could you claim otherwise?

The differences in practice between Catholics is not unique to Christianity, the same is true of Islam, but it is not relevant to the claim of authority.
 
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