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Lifeisawesome
Guest
Friends - can someone point me to church documents that specify limitations on the use of the sanctuary. There is a comedian performing in my diocese in the Church. It is disturbing.
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Apryl
Guest
This is tragic… I’m sure that the reasoning behind this allowance is based in the need to raise funds for the church, and an attempt to get warm bodies in the seats… but getting warm bodies in the seats for a comedian will likely not get warm bodies in the seats for Mass and getting them in the seats for Mass is what we are charged to do in order ot help others to get to heaven.
Are the performances DURING Mass time? Or is this on another day of the week?
The REAL distinction between a Catholic church and any other structure is the Blessed Sacrament. If they (respectfully) remove the Blessed Sacrament, there really (I believe) is nothing to make the performance a bad thing. Even if it is disturbing.
If they remove the Blessed Sacrament, that makes that structure a bunch of walls and a ceiling, and the comedian, jugglers, and movies can all be there.
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Garyjohn2
Guest
That’s too bad…they don’t have a hall or a classroom or some other space they can use?
I mean, it sounds disrespectful to me, but maybe I’m over-reacting.
If its a tasteful comedian, perhaps even one that offers spiritual insights, and he stands in front of the sanctuary to do his bit while walking around (like some priests do their homilies) then it might be a good thing actually.
Unfortunately, I’m not aware of the “official” rules.
I mean, it sounds disrespectful to me, but maybe I’m over-reacting.
If its a tasteful comedian, perhaps even one that offers spiritual insights, and he stands in front of the sanctuary to do his bit while walking around (like some priests do their homilies) then it might be a good thing actually.
Unfortunately, I’m not aware of the “official” rules.
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Lifeisawesome
Guest
Well - it is not often that these things turn out well. Not more than an hour ago I found the documents I was looking for and sent the note below. I was immediately informed that the location was changed because of my note…
I was a bit shocked this morning when you mentioned that the comedy act was going to happen in the Church. Below you will find excerpts from a declaration of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments sent to the presidents of the national conferences of bishops and through them to commissions on Liturgy regarding the use of Churches outside of mass.
The document is very explicit and unambiguous. I may be wrong but in my mind there is no way that a comedian can rise to the level required for the exception of use for sacred music. Basically what is going on at the parish this evening is contrary to magisterial intent. It violates and degrades the purpose of the sanctuary and thereby what it signifies - Christ. If he is really present when we worship, how can we then swap out the use of that same sacred space for something comparatively base as a comedy act - even a noble/Christian one? It sends a signal to the community (especially to Children) that what happens in the Church is really not all that meaningful - it is just a meeting place where religious stuff happens. It is particularly disturbing in light of how much space is available there. It is not like there are not other very high capacity rooms for this kind of thing. This is how a parish then becomes desensitized the the reality of Christ and the nature of the sacraments.
II. POINTS FOR CONSIDERATION
The character and purpose of churches
As visible constructions, churches are signs of the pilgrim Church on earth; they are images that proclaim the heavenly Jerusalem, places in which are actualized the mystery of the communion between man and God. Both in urban areas and in the countryside, the church remains the house of God, and the sign of his dwelling among men. It remains a sacred place, even when no liturgical celebration is taking place.
In a society disturbed by noise, especially in big cities, churches are also an oasis where men gather, in silence and in prayer, to seek peace of soul and the light of faith.
That will only be possible in so far as churches maintain their specific identity. When churches are used for ends other than those for which they were built, their role as a sign of the Christian mystery is put at risk, with more or less serious harm to the teaching of the faith and to the sensitivity of the People of God, according to the Lord’s words: “My house is a house of prayer” (Lk 19:46).
III. PRACTICAL DIRECTIVES
8. The regulation of the use of churches is stipulated by canon 1210 of the Code of Canon Law:
Bottom line. I don’t see how a comedy act, again, even a Catholic one, is not contrary to the sacred character of a Catholic Church. I cannot participate in good conscience.
I was a bit shocked this morning when you mentioned that the comedy act was going to happen in the Church. Below you will find excerpts from a declaration of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments sent to the presidents of the national conferences of bishops and through them to commissions on Liturgy regarding the use of Churches outside of mass.
The document is very explicit and unambiguous. I may be wrong but in my mind there is no way that a comedian can rise to the level required for the exception of use for sacred music. Basically what is going on at the parish this evening is contrary to magisterial intent. It violates and degrades the purpose of the sanctuary and thereby what it signifies - Christ. If he is really present when we worship, how can we then swap out the use of that same sacred space for something comparatively base as a comedy act - even a noble/Christian one? It sends a signal to the community (especially to Children) that what happens in the Church is really not all that meaningful - it is just a meeting place where religious stuff happens. It is particularly disturbing in light of how much space is available there. It is not like there are not other very high capacity rooms for this kind of thing. This is how a parish then becomes desensitized the the reality of Christ and the nature of the sacraments.
II. POINTS FOR CONSIDERATION
The character and purpose of churches
- According to tradition as expressed in the rite for the dedication of a church and altar, churches are primarily places where the people of God gather, and are “made one as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one, and are the Church, the temple of God built with living stones, in which the Father is worshipped in spirit and in truth.” Rightly so, from ancient times the name “church” has been extended to the building in which the Christian community unite to hear the word of God, to pray together, to receive the sacraments, to celebrate the Eucharist and to prolong its celebration in the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament (Cf. Order of the Dedication of a Church, ch. II, 1).
As visible constructions, churches are signs of the pilgrim Church on earth; they are images that proclaim the heavenly Jerusalem, places in which are actualized the mystery of the communion between man and God. Both in urban areas and in the countryside, the church remains the house of God, and the sign of his dwelling among men. It remains a sacred place, even when no liturgical celebration is taking place.
In a society disturbed by noise, especially in big cities, churches are also an oasis where men gather, in silence and in prayer, to seek peace of soul and the light of faith.
That will only be possible in so far as churches maintain their specific identity. When churches are used for ends other than those for which they were built, their role as a sign of the Christian mystery is put at risk, with more or less serious harm to the teaching of the faith and to the sensitivity of the People of God, according to the Lord’s words: “My house is a house of prayer” (Lk 19:46).
III. PRACTICAL DIRECTIVES
8. The regulation of the use of churches is stipulated by canon 1210 of the Code of Canon Law:
Code:
"In a sacred place only those things are to be permitted which serve to exercise or promote worship, piety and religion. Anything out of harmony with the holiness the place is forbidden. The Ordinary may, however, for individual cases, permit other uses, provided they are not contrary to the sacred character of the place."
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
The whole notion of ‘sanctuary’ is ‘sacred space’. It’s a tragedy that most people, including priests, don’t recognize this. The sanctuary is not a stage for ‘performing’; that’s a Protestant thing, not a Catholic one.
The question for the priest is: is there not one place dedicated strictly to Our Lord, or is nothing truly sacred? You have your own bedroom that is ‘off limits’ to everyone else, yet Our Lord has not 15 square feet in the city?
The question for the priest is: is there not one place dedicated strictly to Our Lord, or is nothing truly sacred? You have your own bedroom that is ‘off limits’ to everyone else, yet Our Lord has not 15 square feet in the city?
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Ave_Maria_1
Guest
Yes, there are official statements for this matter. I refer you to the Code of Canon Law:
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
and specifically canons 1205-1213. It is allowed to have holy endeavors take place in the church, for example a concert of sacred music but the profane or secular things should be avoided such as a comedian where a school gym is more appropriate.
Here are some specific canons:
Can. 1210 Only those things which serve the exercise or promotion of worship, piety, or religion are permitted in a sacred place; anything not consonant with the holiness of the place is forbidden. In an individual case, however, the ordinary can permit other uses which are not contrary to the holiness of the place.
Can. 1211 Sacred places are violated by gravely injurious actions done in them with scandal to the faithful, actions which, in the judgment of the local ordinary, are so grave and contrary to the holiness of the place that it is not permitted to carry on worship in them until the damage is repaired by a penitential rite according to the norm of the liturgical books.
That travesty in New York with a rock band in the sanctuary and beer drinking and so forth in the church that just happened, would necessitate a penitential rite now.
Ave Maria!
ps–I am also in Colorado, where are you?
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
and specifically canons 1205-1213. It is allowed to have holy endeavors take place in the church, for example a concert of sacred music but the profane or secular things should be avoided such as a comedian where a school gym is more appropriate.
Here are some specific canons:
Can. 1210 Only those things which serve the exercise or promotion of worship, piety, or religion are permitted in a sacred place; anything not consonant with the holiness of the place is forbidden. In an individual case, however, the ordinary can permit other uses which are not contrary to the holiness of the place.
Can. 1211 Sacred places are violated by gravely injurious actions done in them with scandal to the faithful, actions which, in the judgment of the local ordinary, are so grave and contrary to the holiness of the place that it is not permitted to carry on worship in them until the damage is repaired by a penitential rite according to the norm of the liturgical books.
That travesty in New York with a rock band in the sanctuary and beer drinking and so forth in the church that just happened, would necessitate a penitential rite now.
Ave Maria!
ps–I am also in Colorado, where are you?
L
Lifeisawesome
Guest
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