Usually I can at least figure out when I've committed a mortal sin

[Binary]

Here’s the skinny: yesterday I was going to attend mass at a church I hadn’t been to in a few months. I showed up for the noon mass, sat down, and then the priest said “the mass is ended, go in peace.” Turns out they had an 11am mass instead.

I checked the bulletin, and saw they had a later mass at 5:30. However, since I had invited people over (some from out of state) to watch the superbowl at 6, I chose to stay home and socialize rather than fulfilling my Sunday obligation.

So, mortal sin? Venial? No sin at all?

 

[bilop]

Here’s the skinny: yesterday I was going to attend mass at a church I hadn’t been to in a few months. I showed up for the noon mass, sat down, and then the priest said “the mass is ended, go in peace.” Turns out they had an 11am mass instead.

I checked the bulletin, and saw they had a later mass at 5:30. However, since I had invited people over (some from out of state) to watch the superbowl at 6, I chose to stay home and socialize rather than fulfilling my Sunday obligation.

So, mortal sin? Venial? No sin at all?

I’d say it has to be some sort of sin, b/c you deliberately choose to entertain instead of going to the 5:30 Mass.

Was there anyone else who could have greeted your guests while you went to Mass?

If there had been no 5:30 Mass, then it would definitely not be sinful.

God Bless

 

[k8e308]

I’ve been there, I think we all have. We can make it to Mass, but it’s inconvenient, so we don’t go. It’s a sin, no doubt, but mortal or venial, I don’t know. Best to play it safe and go to confession.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

`Look people, Catholicism is above all a religion of common sense. The OP tried to go to Mass, was mistaken about the time and had already planned to host a get-together for the Super Bowl so he couldn’t make it to a later one. There is no sin here. Sheesh.

From:

Moral Theology
by Fr. Heribert Jone (Translated and adapted by Fr. Urban Adelman, O.F.M. Cap., J.C.D.)

This Edition (republished by Tan Books):

Nihil Obstat: Pius Kaelin, O.F.M. Cap., Censor Deputatus

Imprimi Potest: Giles Staab, O.F.M. Cap., Provincial, November 30, 1961

Imprimatur: John J. Wright, D.D., Bishop of Pittsburgh, December 8, 1961

"198. - III. Excuses from assisting at Mass. Any moderately grave reason suffices to excuse one from assistence at Holy Mass, such as considerable hardship or corporal or spiritual harm either to oneself or another.

Therefore, the following are excused: the sick, convalescents, persons who cannot endure the air in church (e.g., certain neurotic persons and sometimes pregnant women in the first or last months of pregnancy); those that have a long way to church, people hindered by the duties of their state (e.g., shepherds, watchmen, policemen on duty, cooks, and those working in mills that may not shut down over Sunday); women or children who would incur the grave displeasure of their husbands or parents by attending Mass; servants whose masters do not permit them to attend Mass (should this happen consistently the servants should seek other employment); those that care for the sick, rescue workers in time of fire or flood; and those who have reason to think that by staying home they can hinder sin; or who would suffer injury to their good name or possessions by going to Church. (Thus: unmarried women who are pregnant, may remain home if by doing so they can avoid disgrace; similarly, those who lack clothing becoming to their social standing; those on a journey; those who would suffer the loss of extraordinary gain by attending Mass). One may miss Mass for the sake of a pleasure trip once or twice if he has no other opportunity during the year, or if it is the last opportunity he will ever have for a certain excursion. (Cf. 60.) Finally, custom in certain localities excuses such as, for example, lying-in women, widows in the first days of their bereavement, engaged persons whose marriage banns are published in the only Mass they can attend."

Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept:

1. a person who has not yet completed the sixteenth year of age;
2. a person who without negligence was ignorant that he or she violated a law or precept; inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance;
3. a person who acted due to physical force or a chance occurrence which the person could not foresee or, if foreseen, avoid;
4. a person who acted coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;
5. a person who acted with due moderation against an unjust aggressor for the sake of legitimate self defense or defense of another;
6. a person who lacked the use of reason, without prejudice to the prescripts of cann. 1324, §1,n. 2 and 1325;
7. **a person who without negligence thought that one of the circumstances mentioned in nn. 4 or 5 was present.
   **

I think it is clear here that we are not expected to kill ourselves to get to Mass. Intent is the key in this situation and this person made an honest effort. Case closed.

 

[Cristiano]

`Look people, Catholicism is above all a religion of common sense. The OP tried to go to Mass, was mistaken about the time and had already planned to host a get-together for the Super Bowl so he couldn’t make it to a later one. There is no sin here. Sheesh.

Which logic are you basing your statement on? The question is if he had a reasonable opportunity to attend mass and if he did why did he not attend.

The poster himself says that he had a reasonable opportunity. He also added that he chose not to attend. Nowhere he stated that he could not reasonably attend. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me” (stated twice both in Exodus and in Deuteronomy).

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Which logic are you basing your statement on? The question is if he had a reasonable opportunity to attend mass and if he did why did he not attend.

The poster himself says that he had a reasonable opportunity. He also added that he chose not to attend. Nowhere he stated that he could not reasonably attend. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me” (stated twice both in Exodus and in Deuteronomy).

See my revised post above.

 

[Debora123]

`Look people, Catholicism is above all a religion of common sense. The OP tried to go to Mass, was mistaken about the time and had already planned to host a get-together for the Super Bowl so he couldn’t make it to a later one. There is no sin here. Sheesh.

From:

Moral Theology
by Fr. Heribert Jone (Translated and adapted by Fr. Urban Adelman, O.F.M. Cap., J.C.D.)

This Edition (republished by Tan Books):

Nihil Obstat: Pius Kaelin, O.F.M. Cap., Censor Deputatus

Imprimi Potest: Giles Staab, O.F.M. Cap., Provincial, November 30, 1961

Imprimatur: John J. Wright, D.D., Bishop of Pittsburgh, December 8, 1961

"198. - III. Excuses from assisting at Mass. Any moderately grave reason suffices to excuse one from assistence at Holy Mass, such as considerable hardship or corporal or spiritual harm either to oneself or another.

Therefore, the following are excused: the sick, convalescents, persons who cannot endure the air in church (e.g., certain neurotic persons and sometimes pregnant women in the first or last months of pregnancy); those that have a long way to church, people hindered by the duties of their state (e.g., shepherds, watchmen, policemen on duty, cooks, and those working in mills that may not shut down over Sunday); women or children who would incur the grave displeasure of their husbands or parents by attending Mass; servants whose masters do not permit them to attend Mass (should this happen consistently the servants should seek other employment); those that care for the sick, rescue workers in time of fire or flood; and those who have reason to think that by staying home they can hinder sin; or who would suffer injury to their good name or possessions by going to Church. (Thus: unmarried women who are pregnant, may remain home if by doing so they can avoid disgrace; similarly, those who lack clothing becoming to their social standing; those on a journey; those who would suffer the loss of extraordinary gain by attending Mass). One may miss Mass for the sake of a pleasure trip once or twice if he has no other opportunity during the year, or if it is the last opportunity he will ever have for a certain excursion. (Cf. 60.) Finally, custom in certain localities excuses such as, for example, lying-in women, widows in the first days of their bereavement, engaged persons whose marriage banns are published in the only Mass they can attend."

Can. 1323 The following are not subject to a penalty when they have violated a law or precept:

1. a person who has not yet completed the sixteenth year of age;
2. a person who without negligence was ignorant that he or she violated a law or precept; inadvertence and error are equivalent to ignorance;
3. a person who acted due to physical force or a chance occurrence which the person could not foresee or, if foreseen, avoid;
4. a person who acted coerced by grave fear, even if only relatively grave, or due to necessity or grave inconvenience unless the act is intrinsically evil or tends to the harm of souls;
5. a person who acted with due moderation against an unjust aggressor for the sake of legitimate self defense or defense of another;
6. a person who lacked the use of reason, without prejudice to the prescripts of cann. 1324, §1,n. 2 and 1325;
7. **a person who without negligence thought that one of the circumstances mentioned in nn. 4 or 5 was present.
   **

I think it is clear here that we are not expected to kill ourselves to get to Mass. Intent is the key in this situation and this person made an honest effort. Case closed.

I love you Thoughtfulone…

 

[Cristiano]

See my revised post above.

Still I do not see your logic. I do not see any definition of grave inconvenience, and so I do not see how it applies to neglecting God to avoid a late start at a superbowl party.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I love you Thoughtfulone…

:hug3:

 

[teachccd]

Still I do not see your logic. I do not see any definition of grave inconvenience, and so I do not see how it applies to neglecting God to avoid a late start at a superbowl party.

Ya, you know the OP really just needs to mention this in the confessional and quit trying to have us be his confessor. Bottom line is that he chose a prior committment over an available Mass time. We don’t know all of the details like what would have happened if he were an hour late to the party? The rule of thumb is if you don’t know if you committed a mortal sin then pretty much you didn’t. You tried to make the early Mass so your intention was there. The question remains: Could you have gone the extra mile? Only you know that from within your heart and you need to bring it to the confessional and then let it go… teachccd

 

[Cristiano]

Ya, you know the OP really just needs to mention this in the confessional and quit trying to have us be his confessor. Bottom line is that he chose a prior committment over an available Mass time. We don’t know all of the details like what would have happened if he were an hour late to the party? The rule of thumb is if you don’t know if you committed a mortal sin then pretty much you didn’t. You tried to make the early Mass so your intention was there. The question remains: Could you have gone the extra mile? Only you know that from within your heart and you need to bring it to the confessional and then let it go… teachccd

I never said that he committed mortal sin. I was simply discussing the logic of another poster. I would also like to mention that if the poster asks a question like this that means that his conscience is formed well enough to know the answer. I do not not know the answer to his question, but I am sure that he knows at least an approximate answer.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Still I do not see your logic. I do not see any definition of grave inconvenience, and so I do not see how it applies to neglecting God to avoid a late start at a superbowl party.

Please! The man had guests coming over DURING the time the mass was to take place. He TRIED to attend an earlier mass to the point of actually showing up and sitting down at church. He would have had to call his guests and cancel his party, ruining their plans and his own for the Superbowl. I think “grave inconvenience” describes this situation perfectly. God knows what was in his heart.

 

[Cristiano]

Please! The man had guests coming over DURING the time the mass was to take place. He TRIED to attend an earlier mass to the point of actually showing up and sitting down at church. He would have had to call his guests and cancel his party, ruining their plans and his own for the Superbowl. I think “grave inconvenience” describes this situation perfectly. God knows what was in his heart.

Here we go with the all or nothing attitude. There is a big difference between starting a party at a later time or calling it off. I think that your definition of grave is more flexible than mine. I wonder if your definition of grave is so relaxed also for “grave matter” or “grave sin”. If that is true probably your definition of mortal sin is much more inclusive than mine and so you risk to commit more mortal sins that I do.

 

[Debora123]

Here we go with the all or nothing attitude. There is a big difference between starting a party at a later time or calling it off. I think that your definition of grave is more flexible than mine. I wonder if your definition of grave is so relaxed also for “grave matter” or “grave sin”. If that is true probably your definition of mortal sin is much more inclusive than mine and so you risk to commit more mortal sins that I do.

Didn’t the Super Bowl start at 6:00pm? If he went to mass at 5:30, it wouldn’t be over till 6:30, plus he’d have to drive home. Meaning the party would probably have to be postponed till around 7:00pm. The problem with that is that, once again, the game starts at 6:00… Meaning all his guests would be missing a big chunk of the first half while driving to his house to be there at 7:00pm. Probably not a very considerate thing to do to guests who have prior arrangements to be at your house to watch a game that starts at 6pm. Just sayin.

 

[Binary]

Thank you for all of the thoughtful responses. My housemate was home and could have greeted our guests, though one of them was my friend, rather than his. I thought I would have been a bad host not to have been there when he arrived. I’ll play it safe and confess it anyway.

Ya, you know the OP really just needs to mention this in the confessional and quit trying to have us be his confessor.

teachccd, I’d just like to make you aware that I have no expectation or request that you participate in this or any of my future threads. I apologize for any undue burden I placed on your internet browsing time.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Here we go with the all or nothing attitude. There is a big difference between starting a party at a later time or calling it off. I think that your definition of grave is more flexible than mine. I wonder if your definition of grave is so relaxed also for “grave matter” or “grave sin”. If that is true probably your definition of mortal sin is much more inclusive than mine and so you risk to commit more mortal sins that I do.

Do you think God is so legalistic as to not understand what was in the heart of the poster when he drove to mass and sat in the pew that morning? All of these rules aren’t present to keep the riff-raff OUT of Heaven, they are designed to get all of us poor sinners IN.

I swear, when I read things like this, where people are so terrified of accidentally making a mistake that will send them to hell forever, it makes me sad, because all of you are doubting and despairing of the infinite mercy and love of God. He is your FATHER who loves you and wants you to be with Him forever, NOT the ACCUSER (Satan) who will use any little shred of imperfection to impugn you and cast you into the pit. Try not to confuse the two.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Excuses, excuses…

 

[teachccd]

I never said that he committed mortal sin. I was simply discussing the logic of another poster. I would also like to mention that if the poster asks a question like this that means that his conscience is formed well enough to know the answer. I do not not know the answer to his question, but I am sure that he knows at least an approximate answer.

And I never meant to impy that you did. I agreed with your post. And, yes, he knows what he should do and where his heart really was. We cannot really discern that here.

 

[William2415]

I think Thoughtfulone is a little too dismissive of there being an offense against God (and somewhat confused as to what is meant by the word “grave”).

Consider if you had had a regular meeting with a friend instead (say for a bible study or whatever) and without thinking had set up the superbowl party and then stood-up your friend. Although your friend might understand and easily forgive you because you had not intentionally done it, would you not at least apologize to your friend? Does God deserve less?

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I think Thoughtfulone is a little too dismissive of there being an offense against God (and somewhat confused as to what is meant by the word “grave”).

Consider if you had had a regular meeting with a friend instead (say for a bible study or whatever) and without thinking had set up the superbowl party and then stood-up your friend. Although your friend might understand and easily forgive you because you had not intentionally done it, would you not at least apologize to your friend? Does God deserve less?

Now imagine if your friend had thought that the two of you were to meet for lunch at 11 and you thought you were to meet at 12 (which was your usual time, I might add). You arrive just as your friend is leaving. Your friend says, “Can you meet later today?” and you say, “I am so sorry, but I already have other plans this evening that would be difficult to get out of. How about next week?”

Don’t you think it would be a tad unreasonable for the friend to say “No! It has to be tonight! You must cancel your plans with your other friends to make up for getting confused about the time today or I will never speak to you again!”

Is this how you see God? No wonder you people are scared to death…

Also, note that the first source I cited had this to say:

“One may miss Mass for the sake of a pleasure trip once or twice if he has no other opportunity during the year…”

I think it’s safe to say that the Superbowl falls under this category.

Also, I don’t know what your definition of “grave” is, but mine has always been “serious”, and I think that the Catholic Church backs me up here by using the terms “grave sin” and “serious sin” interchangeably. So yes, I think postponing a Superbowl party until well AFTER the start of the game or not being there to greet your guests (one of whom doesn’t even know your roommate or anyone else at the party) is a serious inconvenience, not just to the OP, but to everyone else in attendance as well, especially since this person ALREADY tried to attend mass earlier in the day. As per canon law (above), serious inconvenience is enough to take away the obligation of attending Mass, so we have two legitimate sources stating that what the OP did was NOT sinful.