Utah LDS do you really believe?

[Vietnatalians]

The concept of eternal progression doesn’t even make logical sense. Progression can not be eternal, because it would already be at that “fullness.” If something is going on for eternity it has to be unchanging, or ever-changing, but not progressing or digressing.

So Flameburns, you used to be Mormon? What were the major stumbling blocks coming out of that theology and what helped you get over them? I’ve got a friend that I just started talking to that is Mormon, but I really have no clue where he’s coming from. Most of my reading has been about Catholic theology only or the differences between Catholics and protestants. How do I go about talking to this dude in an effective and charitable way?
~Steve~

 

[Vietnatalians]

Oh, and has anyone heard about the “recent discoveries” of ancient christian documents (i.e. The Gospel of Philip, Clementine Recognitions etc.) that supposedly mesh up with the book of mormon “like a glove?” It sounds shady to me, just wondering if any of you have heard about that.
~Steve~

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Paul G:

Daniel are you addressing this question only to LDS that live in Utah? Are you aware that there are more LDS that live outside the USA than in it?

I’m sure he meant the Utah brand of LDS. Salt Lake City Mormonism isn’t the only denom. of Mormonism.

 

[Paul_G]

flameburns623:

Paul:

I took the title of his thread to mean that he is addressing those LDS who belong to the Utah-based (actually, the Salt Lake City-based) Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, as opposed to one of the splinter groups such as the RLDS (now called the Community of Christ), which reject the doctrine of eternal progression.

Thanks, living outside the USA, I don’t know to much about these groups. Daniel’s question now makes sense to me.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Vietnatalians:

The concept of eternal progression doesn’t even make logical sense. Progression can not be eternal, because it would already be at that “fullness.” If something is going on for eternity it has to be unchanging, or ever-changing, but not progressing or digressing.

So Flameburns, you used to be Mormon? What were the major stumbling blocks coming out of that theology and what helped you get over them? I’ve got a friend that I just started talking to that is Mormon, but I really have no clue where he’s coming from. Most of my reading has been about Catholic theology only or the differences between Catholics and protestants. How do I go about talking to this dude in an effective and charitable way?
~Steve~

Great Question, some sources to look at,

catholicmormon.libsyn.com/

catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp
type LDS in search box on left

utlm.org/

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Another possible reference to baptism for the dead is in the Coptic Gospel of Philip, one of the documents found at Nag Hamadi in 1945. Here, we read that those who are baptized can become the servants of others, freeing them through the work of love that they, too, may enjoy the anointing at the hands of those who have received it.20

The point that Nibley repeated makes in regard to the Coptic pseudepigrapha is that it is not only related to other early Christian literature,

fairlds.org/apol/misc/misc23.html

Hi Vietnatalians, pseudepigrapha means false writings. The gospel of Philip is gnostic in nature, not Christian. I suggest you follow the above link print out the article, then seek out each of the documents online or off line if need be, so you can see how they use sources — you will find that they often beg the question so to speak.

The Clementine Recognitions describe Abraham as an astrologer (p. 185).

The Book of Abraham has an account of the Creation. Several ancient texts report that God revealed details of the Creation to Abraham (e.g., the Clementine Recognitions (p. 186)).

jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/boa.shtml

Another tack: making Christ’s pre-existence = the individual soul’s pre-existence:

The 2nd century Clementine Recognitions, allegedly preached “the doctrine of the pre-existence of souls.”

This is nothing more than a footnote to Clementine Recognitions 1:28 in Roberts and Donaldsons The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975,) p. 85.

The pre-existence of Christ can of course be accepted. This does not mean the pre-existence of each individual soul, though.

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/mormon/plato_preexist.html

 

[flameburns623]

robins:

One thing that I know about Mormons is that they get bonded on this earth to their spouse and children. I believe that would be their family when they get to whatever place they are going. Also you are including a lot of people in that list when if comes to the Bush clan - Kerry, the Queen and many others such as my husbands family, so remember you aren’t just talking about the folks on TV.
I have heard that the LDS came from an egyption divorce decree, has anyone else heard that?

Robins:

One of the ‘extra’ books of Scripture of the LDS Church is the Book of Abraham; it is found in the Pearl of Great Price. The Book of Abraham is a supposed translation of some Egyptian papyrii–keep in mind that in Smith’s day, ancient Egyptian had not yet been translated and many felt hieroglypics probably never could be translated. So it probably seemed pretty ‘safe’ to Smith to affect the ability to translate these papyrii. Since that time however, we HAVE found ways to translate these papyrii and they have been proven to be Egyptian funerary texts, very commonplace works often buried with mummies. I’d never heard they had anything to do with Egyptian ‘divorce decrees’ and suspect you’ve picked up some misinformation.

My comments about the Bushes, etcetera were meant to be humorous. Mormons practice something known as ‘sealings’ in their Temples, wherein spouses and children are sealed together ‘for time and for eternity’. Also their well-known practice of Baptism for the Dead, which also takes place in LDS Temples.

Keep in mind that LDS Temples are very special buildings for Mormons not to be confused with the local ward meeting-house where Mormons worship each week. LDS wards are open to the public; Mormon temples are reserved for Mormons in good standing only and are closed to the public, except for rare occaisions when a temple is being dedicated or re-dedicated.

 

[flameburns623]

Vietnitalians:

So Flameburns, you used to be Mormon? What were the major stumbling blocks coming out of that theology and what helped you get over them? I’ve got a friend that I just started talking to that is Mormon, but I really have no clue where he’s coming from. Most of my reading has been about Catholic theology only or the differences between Catholics and protestants. How do I go about talking to this dude in an effective and charitable way?

My recommended booklist:

flameburns623:

By non-LDS:

Mormon America: Power and Promise, Richard K. Ostling and Joan K. Ostling, Harper, 1999. Very impartial, much better than some explicitly anti-Mormon books or even most books by investigative journalists–the latter tend mainly to be irreligious/secular and miss a lot because of their biases against relgion in general.

Joseph Smith’s Response to Skepticism, Robert N. Hullinger, Signature Books, 1992

Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism, Dan Vogel, Signature Books, 1989.

Two which I recommend only for the evidence which their research uncovered, NOT for the interpretations and ‘spin’ which the Tanners put on that evidence:

The Changing World of Mormonism, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Moody Press, 1980.

Mormonism–Shadow or Reality?, Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Modern Microfilm Company, 1972.

The only other anti-LDS apologetics work that I am fairly comfortable with:

Reasoning from the Scriptures with Mormons, Ron Rhodes, Harvest House Publishers, 1995.

Several from LDS sources. I really advise people NOT to spend too much time only reading anti-LDS stuff–it is difficult to find material which doesn’t include at least some mistakes or which is tainted by the author’s biases against the LDS Church. If you read anti-LDS material–try to read at least two books by Mormons on the same subject for every ONE book by an ‘Anti’–it will help you keep perspective. Not every pro-LDS book has to be apologetic in nature, but it should help you gain a better grasp of how the same ideas look from ‘inside the head’ of practicing LDS, which is always a help in dialoguing with members of other faith-traditions. :

The Articles of Faith by James Talmage

Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage

**A Marvelous Work and a Wonder **by LeGrand Richards

The House of the Lord by James Talmage (Talmage is a classic LDS writer, greatly revered).

You May Claim the Blessings of The Holy Temple, (alternative title: The Holy Temple), Boyd K. Packer, Bookcraft, 1980

**Church History in the Fulness of Times **distributed by the LDS Church (Church Distribution)

Gospel Principles Church Distribution

An Approach to the Book of Mormon by Hugh Nibley

The Mormon Doctrine of Deity by B.H Roberts (another much-revered classic LDS apologist–who is rumored to have suffered doubts about his Mormon faith in his declining years, btw).

Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism, Robert L. Bushman, University of Illinois Press, 1984

Encylopedia of Mormonism (Not suggesting anyone read the whole set but selected articles as needed)

**The Work and the Glory **Gerald Lund (9-volume fictional account of Joseph Smith–good intro to LDS history, and now becoming available on DVD as a series of movies).

Continued on next post.

 

[flameburns623]

booklist continued:

flameburns623:

Church magazines:

Ensign: Also available for reading on-line at: lds.org/gospellibrary/pdfmagazine/0,7779,592-6-1,00.html

Meridian Magazine: An on-line magazine and excellent way to stay current on happenings in the LDS Church. NOT an official LDS-sponsored magazine to my knowledge but very conservative and faith-affirming. See the following URL: meridianmagazine.com/

Videos (for those who prefer to learn by watching and listening rather than by reading–all of these are basically LDS-church sponsored so will be faith-affirming, not controversial or challenging):

The Work and the Glory: Video retelling of Lund’s series of novels.

The Mountain of the Lord: Very enjoyable if rather heavy-handed acount of the building of the SLC temple. Told as if through the eyes of the presiding LDS prophet at the time the temple was completed, Wilford Woodruff.

Come Unto Me: Touches on some central LDS doctrines and themes. Not one video but several, and of varying quality.

How Rare a Possession: On the Book of Mormon. Also a compendium of several short videos.

**Legacy: **At one time, this was shown in LDS Visitor’s Centers and is very well done. Is a ‘composite’ of several people but mainly the life of one early LDS woman.

*You’ll find many of these in a public library or available there via inter-library loan. A local LDS Ward library may also lend you some of them as well. (A ‘Ward’ is roughly equivalent to a Catholic parish). And offer to lend you gobs of others. No need to buy them all nor to read them all: you simply want to gain real insight into the mind and spirituality of Mormonism. These, plus the LDS ‘Standard Works’ (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, along with the King James Bible) will give you plenty of grasp of basic Mormonism. *

Just making the effort to learn will help keep dialogue open. If all you do is read ‘anti-Mormon’ stuff and regurgitate this back to your Mormon acquaintances–you’ll hit the shoals of irresolvable disagreement pretty quickly. Especially when you stumble across something which is clearly inaccurate and/or hateful in it’s presentation and present it as fact. You will make it obvious that you’re not really learning out of a real interest in the LDS but just looking to ‘win’ an argument. The Mormons will spot the inaccuracies immediately and ‘mark’ you mentally as someone who is simply uninterested in knowing the truth about their faith. They will usually cease giving you a hearing, and often they won’t bother even to pretend to listen.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

meggy11386:

I am LDS but am seeking the Catholic Church. It isn’t that we are going to be GODS it is that we will become like Gods. We will live among our Heavenly Father (GOD), and our Brother, Jesus Christ

Interesting choice of words “like gods”. That is what Satan said to Eve. (Gen 3:5) :bigyikes:

Keep seeking the Truth and you will come to the Catholic Church. We will welcome you!!!

 

[meggy11386]

Daniel Marsh:

So, do LDS believe they will become a God? to make and populate their own world, to be worshipped by their offspring?

NO… LDS people believe they will live among God. Not become God. That we will have God like qualities. But not have a planet. We believe that there are 3 degrees of Heaven. Celestrial being the highest, where God dwells, where he is.

 

[majick275]

I’ll have to disagree with that. We’ve gone over this before many times. The LDS lesson manuals, talks by their general authorities (especially prophets) from Joseph Smith Jr. on down have always made it clear that God was once a man like us and that if we reach exaltation we will become like him with our own kingdoms and eternal increase.

 

[Mom_of_5]

meggy11386:

NO… LDS people believe they will live among God. Not become God. That we will have God like qualities. But not have a planet. We believe that there are 3 degrees of Heaven. Celestrial being the highest, where God dwells, where he is.

WRONG!!! LDS believe that they progress to godhood and when finally reach that stage, they become gods, have their own planets. Wives are the godess. I went to an LDS funeral recently. The major topic of the service talks was that this old man had lived according to LDS concepts, word of wisdom, had been good and faithful and that surely now, he is still progressing to his godhood, his own “world”. I question if Meggy is LDS and if so, how long?? It is true that not all men will become gods, they must first be married, in a temple marriage and in the end go to celestial heaven where he still works to progress to godhood. LDS believe that “God was as man is now”. In other words, god was once man and progressed to godhood. The LDS god had a father who was a god, and his before him, etc, etc., etc.

Love and peace

Mom of 5

 

[meggy11386]

Mom of 5:

WRONG!!! LDS believe that they progress to godhood and when finally reach that stage, they become gods, have their own planets. Wives are the godess. I went to an LDS funeral recently. The major topic of the service talks was that this old man had lived according to LDS concepts, word of wisdom, had been good and faithful and that surely now, he is still progressing to his godhood, his own “world”. I question if Meggy is LDS and if so, how long?? It is true that not all men will become gods, they must first be married, in a temple marriage and in the end go to celestial heaven where he still works to progress to godhood. LDS believe that “God was as man is now”. In other words, god was once man and progressed to godhood. The LDS god had a father who was a god, and his before him, etc, etc., etc.

Love and peace

Mom of 5

You wanted to know if I was LDS, the answer is as of right now I am. But I am looking to become Catholic, because I dont agree with the LDS Church. I have been LDS for 12 years. What I said before was true. We believe that we will become God like (at least that is that I have been taught), we will live among him if we live our lives according to his plan for us. We believe that Jesus Christ is our brother. That Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are 3 different personages. Jesus and God have a body of bones. You don’t have to take my word for it.
As for the Word of Wisdom, yes we believe to get to the Celestrial Kingdom you must follow it, only because it keeps our minds and bodies clean.
We believe that everyone should strive to get into the Celestrial Kingdom. That is one of the things that I do not believe to be true. I believe that you will see everyone in Heaven, it doesn’t matter what you do on Earth. As long as you live a good life and repent you will live among God and you will see your family. No matter their Religion.

 

[Batjacboy]

meggy11386:

What I said before was true. We believe that we will become God like (at least that is that I have been taught.

Meggy is right, in this sense. Many Mormons are taught doctrines that are not the official Mormon stance. I have no doubt that Meggy was taught exactly what she says she was.

Take abortion, for example. I had been led to believe by Mormons that the LDS Church is 100% anti-abortion (i.e., no exceptions allowed). But I have recently been informed, on these forums, by Mormons, that they have always allowed exceptions. In fact, their Prophet came out recently (1998) and allowed for all the usual exceptions (rape, incest, life of the mother, health of the mother, deformity of the child).

Bottom line: what Mormons say they believe may, in fact, be what they were taught. But it doesn’t mean they were taught the official position.

 

[Mom_of_5]

Meggy, keep studying and praying. My husband was LDS and finds great peace in Catholicism. He says he is still in awe at the beauty of the Church. You are on the right path, congratulations.

Love and peace,
Mom of 5

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Meggy, I too am praying for you. I find the difference between “offical” mormon teachings and what those in the pews believe quite interresting.

 

[meggy11386]

Batjacboy:

Take abortion, for example. I had been led to believe by Mormons that the LDS Church is 100% anti-abortion (i.e., no exceptions allowed). But I have recently been informed, on these forums, by Mormons, that they have always allowed exceptions. In fact, their Prophet came out recently (1998) and allowed for all the usual exceptions (rape, incest, life of the mother, health of the mother, deformity of the child).

Bottom line: what Mormons say they believe may, in fact, be what they were taught. But it doesn’t mean they were taught the official position.

That is true… We do have exceptions to the rule. And I for one believe that there is always exceptions, but I don’t know… I have always had doubts about the LDS church, and My Boyfriend is Catholic, and I go to church with him every week. I have many friends in the LDS church, and I don’t want people to be angry with me for whatever religion I choose. Ohh well… Its my decision, and I’m trying to make it.

 

[robins]

God Bless you meggy11386. I will be praying for you as well. I don’t understand Mormon teaching, I just know it confuses me. I hope you will love the Catholic faith as I have if you choose it.
I do know that I have heard from people that have converted have been shunned not only by mormons but all other religions. It is sad to lose friends and family over religion. I do know it says that we will exprience that in the bible.
God Bless, robins

 

[Brad_Haas]

meggy11386:

My Boyfriend is Catholic, and I go to church with him every week.

Lucky guy.