Utman destroyed all old qurans and had in circulations new ones?

[wwolverine]

If Utman destroyed all old qurans meaning the ones which were written by Allah, than the present ones were written by men,

So what does this verse mean?

002.079
YUSUFALI: Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:“This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
PICKTHAL: Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
SHAKIR: Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

 

[Nine_Two]

Actually Uthman destroyed all but the one he liked best. There were several different versions, despite the Muslim assurance that there was only after one.

When I first came to this forum I got into a debate on the topic. The Muslim I was arguing with would alternately confirm Uthman destroyed all by the “correct” Koran, and then deny there were ever varients of it. Expect that in this thread to.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

There exist even today variants in the Quranic textual history, and knowledgeable Muslim scholars (which unfortunately excludes most of their apologists) admit that there exists, either in the textual history or the recitation traditions, variants within the book.

The bigger double standard, however, is that the same Muslims who will call the Bible corrupt even if the majority of textual variants are merely grammatical will then turn around and say the Quran isn’t corrupt because the majority of textual variants are merely grammatical.

 

[A_Lion_Of_Islam]

Allah has promised to preserve the Qur’an intact until the Last Hour. He has done it all through the centuries. The Qur’an has thus been impeccably preserved unaltered and untampered with, like no other scripture in the world. Through the grace of our Lord, this is how the Qur’an will remain, no matter how many false copies are made and distributed. These false copies will never be accepted as the Qur’an, which cannot be anything but the Word of Allah in its entirety.

Even if, may Allah forbid, all of the printed copies of the Qur’an were to disappear from the face of the earth, it would be restored, as it has been memorized by millions of people, young and old, throughout the world. So never harbor any doubts about the authenticity of the Qur’an or the divine promise of its preservation. Allah says: [We have revealed the Reminder and We have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving it intact] (Al-Hijr 15:9).

Our duties as Muslims towards the Qur’an are the following:

1. Learn as much of it as possible and read and ponder its lessons
2. Teach the Qur’an to others

Read more: islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1138109424405#ixzz0cuiuaOjl

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Allah has promised to preserve the Qur’an intact until the Last Hour. He has done it all through the centuries.

The second sentence is a conclusion that is based on a circular presupposition, which is stated in your first sentence. “The Quran is preserved because the Quran says it will be.”

Of course, if the Quran has been perfectly preserved in every way, are there textual variances that are sourced to Abdullah ibn Masud? There are also textual variances sourced to Ubayy ibn Ka’ab, such as one very noticable one in S. 33:6.

In some Qira’ahs, like that of Ubayy ibn Ka’ab, occur also the words “and he is a father of them”, which imply his spiritual relationship and connection with the words “and his wives are their mothers”. [Abdullah Yusuf Ali, *The Meaning of the Holy Quran, 11th edition, Note #3674]

Along with another variance elsewhere in the Quran:

Notice that in the usual Arabic texts (that is, according to the Qira’ah of Hafs) the word qala is here and in 21:112 below, as well as in 23:112, spelt differently from the usual spelling of the word in other places (eg., in 20:125-126). Qul is the reading of the Basrah Qira’ah, meaning, “Say thou” in the imperative. [ibid, Note #2666]

And yet another:

The Hafs reading is “Qala”, “He will say”. This follows the Kufah Qira’ah. The Basrah Qira’ah reads “Qul”, “Say” (in the imperative). [ibid, Note #2948]

Now if you want to argue in regards to the importance of these variances, I would be all for that. However, if you want to argue that not a single variance exists within the Quran’s textual history, then I am afraid you are arguing on thin ice.

 

[A_Lion_Of_Islam]

The second sentence is a conclusion that is based on a circular presupposition, which is stated in your first sentence. “The Quran is preserved because the Quran says it will be.”

Of course, if the Quran has been perfectly preserved in every way, are there textual variances that are sourced to Abdullah ibn Masud? There are also textual variances sourced to Ubayy ibn Ka’ab, such as one very noticable one in S. 33:6.

In some Qira’ahs, like that of Ubayy ibn Ka’ab, occur also the words “and he is a father of them”, which imply his spiritual relationship and connection with the words “and his wives are their mothers”. [Abdullah Yusuf Ali, *The Meaning of the Holy Quran

, 11th edition, Note #3674]

Along with another variance elsewhere in the Quran:

Notice that in the usual Arabic texts (that is, according to the Qira’ah of Hafs) the word qala is here and in 21:112 below, as well as in 23:112, spelt differently from the usual spelling of the word in other places (eg., in 20:125-126). Qul is the reading of the Basrah Qira’ah, meaning, “Say thou” in the imperative. [ibid, Note #2666]

And yet another:

The Hafs reading is “Qala”, “He will say”. This follows the Kufah Qira’ah. The Basrah Qira’ah reads “Qul”, “Say” (in the imperative). [ibid, Note #2948]

Now if you want to argue in regards to the importance of these variances, I would be all for that. However, if you want to argue that not a single variance exists within the Quran’s textual history, then I am afraid you are arguing on thin ice.

Qira’at, in the context of Islam, means literally the readings, that is the method of recitation. Traditionally, there are 7 recognised schools of qira’at, and each one derives its name from the leader of the school of Qur’an recitation. (Source: Wikipedia)

Therefore, it is not written text… this is the way the Qur’an is recited… so your claim that Qur’an has been changed TEXTUALLY has been invalidated… there is no point trying to prove something that is impossible to prove because there is nothing to prove that the Qur’an has ever been changed… It is preserved like Allah promised…

Peace

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Qira’at, in the context of Islam, means literally the readings, that is the method of recitation. Traditionally, there are 7 recognised schools of qira’at, and each one derives its name from the leader of the school of Qur’an recitation. (Source: Wikipedia)

Therefore, it is not written text… this is the way the Qur’an is recited… so your claim that Qur’an has been changed TEXTUALLY has been invalidated… there is no point trying to prove something that is impossible to prove because there is nothing to prove that the Qur’an has ever been changed… It is preserved like Allah promised…

Actually, I stated that there are textual variants among the manuscripts of Ubayy ibn Ka’ab and Ibn Masud. Yusuf Ali even admits that some of these are sourced to texts.

Furthermore if you read Yusuf Ali’s explanation closely, you’ll see that entire phrases are added in. This isn’t a case of toh-may-toh/toh-mah-toh, we’re talking about passages sometimes having their context changed somewhat by the addition of phrases and sentences. This is an example of a variant.

 

[A_Lion_Of_Islam]

Actually, I stated that there are textual variants among the manuscripts of Ubayy ibn Ka’ab and Ibn Masud. Yusuf Ali even admits that some of these are sourced to texts.

Furthermore if you read Yusuf Ali’s explanation closely, you’ll see that entire phrases are added in. This isn’t a case of toh-may-toh/toh-mah-toh, we’re talking about passages sometimes having their context changed somewhat by the addition of phrases and sentences. This is an example of a variant.

Where is your evidence from a reliable source that there are textual variances…

Yusuf Ali translation is a version of English translation… there are many English translations of the Qur’an… the reason why I quote from Yusuf Ali translation is because its the most simplest to read… doesnt necessarily mean I read it… in fact, I read the Qur’an more than read the English translations because to a great extend, I can understand what is in the Qur’an in its original language (thanks and praises be to Allah)

As for your claims in variants… I have already provided you enough evidence to suggest there has been NO changes in the Qur’an today to what was revealed to Muhammad (PBUH)… Enufff said!

 

[Nine_Two]

As for your claims in variants… I have already provided you enough evidence to suggest there has been NO changes in the Qur’an today to what was revealed to Muhammad (PBUH)… Enufff said!

Then what did Uthman burn?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Where is your evidence from a reliable source that there are textual variances…

Yusuf Ali translation is a version of English translation… there are many English translations of the Qur’an… the reason why I quote from Yusuf Ali translation is because its the most simplest to read… doesnt necessarily mean I read it… in fact, I read the Qur’an more than read the English translations because to a great extend, I can understand what is in the Qur’an in its original language (thanks and praises be to Allah)

Yusuf Ali is a scholar, and so far I have not heard any Muslim body condemn his translation the same manner Muslims have condemned others, such as Maulana Muhammad Ali. It’s wonderful that you can read the original Quran, but the issue here is not what your favorite translation is.

Simply dismissing a person’s source - in fact, outright ignoring it - is not the same as presenting argumentation.

As for your claims in variants… I have already provided you enough evidence to suggest there has been NO changes in the Qur’an today to what was revealed to Muhammad (PBUH)… Enufff said!

Where have you presented such evidence? If your evidence is “Because Allah said,” I’m afraid you’re not going to win any lost souls to Islam.

 

[A_Lion_Of_Islam]

Yusuf Ali is a scholar, and so far I have not heard any Muslim body condemn his translation the same manner Muslims have condemned others, such as Maulana Muhammad Ali. It’s wonderful that you can read the original Quran, but the issue here is not what your favorite translation is.

Simply dismissing a person’s source - in fact, outright ignoring it - is not the same as presenting argumentation.

Where have you presented such evidence? If your evidence is “Because Allah said,” I’m afraid you’re not going to win any lost souls to Islam.

I never condemned Yusuf Ali translations…please read my posts and see if I have done this at all… To me (persnally) anyone who tries to understand and interpret the Qur’an to a wider audience has engaged in a very commendable task.

I have always included verses from the Qur’an of Hadith to state the claims i have made (if at all)… To me the word of Allah stands above all… sadly, if you dont like to accept the word of Allah, then its something you need to worry about…

Peace

 

[Nine_Two]

Yes, if you’re going to argue with people of other religions you’re going to need more than your own holy book. If you’re not willing to expand beyond this then don’t even bother.

 

[Jehoshua]

Your arguments are logical fallacies. If you wish to continue discussing the flaws of the Quran then do so in a manner consistent with intelligent dialogue.

Btw i seem to recall a Quran discovered in Yemen in which edits were found and a very different version was discovered written over. Of course its currently unavailable for study thanks to the Yemeni government but it was in the light long enough for any intelliget person to scoff at Islams claims of Quranic incorruptability (in the manner of being unchanged).

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I never condemned Yusuf Ali translations…please read my posts and see if I have done this at all… To me (persnally) anyone who tries to understand and interpret the Qur’an to a wider audience has engaged in a very commendable task.

I never said you condemned them, I said you dismissed it. “Oh! That’s a translation!” Of course, I’m not merely quoting translated verses, I’m quoting the scholarly notes associated with those verses that explain them, many of which confess to variances that include entire phrases being added to passages.

The fact is, Yusuf Ali’s notes are far greater sources for Islam than Wikipedia, which you cited as a source in your response.

I have always included verses from the Qur’an of Hadith to state the claims i have made (if at all)… To me the word of Allah stands above all… sadly, if you dont like to accept the word of Allah, then its something you need to worry about…

That is precisely what I am talking about. Please understand I am not trying to belittle you, but make you understand: what you’ve just presented is the purest form of circular logic. To argue “I believe the Quran is true because the Quran tells me it is” may win you points among other Muslims, but if you want to convince Christians that they are in error, arguing in such a manner is not going to win any souls. That is where you must ask: are you entering dialogue with Christians for their sake, or for yourself?

At one point in my life, I did accept the words of Allah, but then I realized that there was a greater truth out there, and one that had more to verify it than its own revelation. I realized partially that I was being intellectually dishonest not only with close friends, but with myself. I did research with the intent to glorify Islam and attack Christianity, but it instead led me to Christ, my Lord and my God. I realized then that the Quran, which claims to be a revelation in line with the Gospel and Torah, falls far short of both and cannot stand up against the Fountain of Truth from which these two sources sprang from.

I’m asking you now, please, to stop this kind of circular reasoning and to really open up to the truth, to not simply believe what you are told. Be like the people of Israel with Elijah and the priests of Baal, and see who truly worships and reveres God. When you open your heart, God will come in, and He will lead you to Truth.

 

[Sam_777]

Allah has promised to preserve the Qur’an intact until the Last Hour. He has done it all through the centuries. The Qur’an has thus been impeccably preserved unaltered and untampered with,

**Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194:
**** Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:
**A particular verse of the stoning punishment for stoning (male cleric) & (female cleric) was revealed to Muhammad, but now it’s not found in Quran.
(E) (A).
(E) (A).

**Musnad Ahmad, Hadith# 20260: **(A)
Sura#33 (Alahzab) in Quran was identical to the length of sura#2 (Albaqara), but now its shorter than that.

** Sunan Abn Majah, Hadith# 1934: **(A)
Some suras of Quran were eaten by a goat under Aisha’s bed.

 

[planten]

The thread is about the Quran. Lion of Islam (L O I) is tackling the Catholics very well, alone. I may join in and give some info about the Quran.

1. The Quran was revealed in 23 years. The prophet and all Muslims recited the verses of the Quran in their daily prayers such that every one could hear it. The prophet himself used to recite it and he used to listen to others reciting the Quran.
2. The recitation was by heart. Quran was not available in the form of a book. But it is a miracle of the Quran that at various places in the Quran, it is called a Book.
3. As Quran was revealed, the prophet used to have it committed to writing immediately. He had many scribes who used to write the Quran on pieces of wood or bone or cloth.
4. The Quran tells the language in which it is revealed i.e. Clear Arabic.
5. It tells, to whom it was revealed. It tells the name of the angel who revealed the Quran on the heart of Muhammad. i.e. Gabriel.
6. Quran says that it was revealed by Allah and Allah says that He is the protector of the Quran.
7. Quran challenges every one (foriegners as well as locals , Jinn o Ins.) to bring the like of the Quran (even a small portion of it). It says that no one will be able to bring the like of Quran.

That challenge was issued 1400 years ago. There is no reply, nobody to face the challenge.

1. Go to any country, any city, any place and get hold of any Quran. Compare the text. It will all be same text, no variation will be found in the actual words of the Quran. Is it a miracle or not??
2. About authenticity of the Quran, it is the most authentic book revealed to Muhammad by God Almighty. It is indeed a miracle. Did Muhammad know that his religion will spread in all the world?? That people will need a Quran?? Did he know it?? How could he know such thing unless he was told by Allah !! That is another proof that Muhammad was guided all the time by Allah. Allah was talking to Muhammad, for about 23 years.
3. Every year,in the month of Ramadhan, the angel Gabriel used to visit the prophet and he used to revive ( revise) the revealed part of the Quran and the prophet used to repeat the words after the angel.
4. During the last year of the life of the prophet, the angel Gabriel revised the whole Quran twice. The prophet Muhammad somehow understood that it was his last time in the world and that he would not live any more.
5. Before the prophet died in year 632 A.D. all the Quran was revealed completely and preserved on wood and bones etc.
6. When prophet died, The Caliph Abubakr took up the duty of compiling the Quran. He lived only two years and could not complete the job.
7. The work was taken up by the next Caliph (Umar). He called all the concerned scribes and those who had memorised the Quran and a committee was set up to continue the work of authentic compilation.
8. It should be remembered that Quran was revealed in portions at different times. The prophet used to tell the scribes where each revealed portion was supposed to be inserted. So the present collection (order) of the verses and chapters is as adviced by the prophet himself.
9. The whole work was completed in the time of Caliph Uthman. He got few (six) copies made out of the authenticated Quran and sent it to different capitals (far and wide). That was the first correct appearance of the complete correct Quran in the world in the form of a book.
10. Once the complete authentic Quran was available, there was no need to keep any fragmentary parts of Quran. There was no other complete Quran with any one. It was the only complete Quran. The others were parts only with some people.
11. Those parts and portions were no more needed to be kept or to be circulated. They would have harmed the authenticity of the Quran because they were not supported by the learned men. So there was no use keeping those things. If they were burnt, it is alright, as they were not correct and they were not needed.
12. Thanks to Allah that the Muslims have a complete Quran in original language in Arabic.
13. We have many translations and commentaries too of the Quran in many languages which are useful for the non-Arab friends and non-Muslims to understand Quran. It is the most read book in the world today. It is the original as revealed by Allah 1400 years ago. If ever there is any doubt (dispute) about the meaning of any verse, it can be referred to the Quran in Arabic and the matter can be sorted out, settled easily.

If any one will try to do a bad translation of the verses,he/she can be caught easily by comparing with the original text. All praise (and Thanks) be to Allah, The God Almighty who revealed the Quran.