Nope, not my opinion. I am a Protestant and have no moral problems with contraception (except for a few kinds that seem potentially abortifacient). But here we are, on a Catholic forum, with a Catholic OP who is looking for guidance; the only relevant response is, what does the Catholic Church teach? “Celibate men,” too, is irrelevant, deprecatory, and unhelpful.And it is your opinion that what the Catholic Church teaches is the correct way to handle sexuality, which mind you, is an religious organization run by celibate men.
Yes, because we are all just going to pretend celibate men are not the ones enforcing the Catholic laws, rules and regulations on sex (between consenting married couples).Nope, not my opinion. I am a Protestant and have no moral problems with contraception (except for a few kinds that seem potentially abortifacient). But here we are, on a Catholic forum, with a Catholic OP who is looking for guidance; the only relevant response is, what does the Catholic Church teach? “Celibate men,” too, is irrelevant, deprecatory, and unhelpful.
Nobody enforces anything. The Church teaches the truth and we can choose to obey or disobey.Yes, because we are all just going to pretend celibate men are not the ones enforcing the Catholic laws, rules and regulations on sex (between consenting married couples).
Doesn’t change anything I said. You disagree with Catholicism? Don’t be Catholic. But for those who believe in Catholicism, the Church’s rules come from truth. Nothing is to be gained by disparaging its ministers.Yes, because we are all just going to pretend celibate men are not the ones enforcing the Catholic laws, rules and regulations on sex (between consenting married couples).
There are very few rules on sex between a married couple. Almost none actually.Yes, because we are all just going to pretend celibate men are not the ones enforcing the Catholic laws, rules and regulations on sex (between consenting married couples).
Adam, I admire your zeal. But your experience of NFP has not been very long, and I’d venture to guess that your wife is healthy. When it comes to major health issues like those described in the OP, fertility signals can become very unclear and if avoiding pregnancy is necessary, even “periodic” abstinence can mean weeks or months at a time without relations. I don’t know to what extent a monitor could help, especially if there are hormone problems in play.Well…if my wife was unable to have a child due to medical dangers, what are the options:
Mutilate her or my body so that we can’t have kids at all? Even if her condition improves or can be treated at a later stage.
She goes on the pill so that we can continue to be intimate. But that puts her at an increased risk of cancer and other medical issues.
Abstain at the appropriate times.
I know which option involves loving my wife over myself.
It hasn’t got to do with celibate men, it has to do with the truth of the matter and how I can best love my spouse.
By the way…nobody is boasting about their abstinence. Nobody is saying it’s not difficult.
But the truth is, with advancements in the area of fertility monitoring, it is much easier to practice periodic abstinence and the success rate is as high or higher as it is for some methods of contraception.
My wife and I had zero experience of NFP. We bought a fertility monitor and it’s been 100% accurate so far. I would urge the OP to investigate this option.
Realistically, it only involves 5-8 days of abstinence a month.
I never said it wasn’t a significant cross to bear for some couples. As far as I know the particular monitor that we have can take into account a variety of different medical issues that effect the woman. It may give a larger window of abstinence for some couples but it is worth researching.Adam, I admire your zeal. But your experience of NFP has not been very long, and I’d venture to guess that your wife is healthy. When it comes to major health issues like those described in the OP, fertility signals can become very unclear and if avoiding pregnancy is necessary, even “periodic” abstinence can mean weeks or months at a time without relations. I don’t know to what extent a monitor could help, especially if there are hormone problems in play.
That’s not to say I think contraception is justified, because I don’t think it is. But this can be a significant cross to bear for couples.
I’m aware it doesn’t change the Church’s teaching.I never said it wasn’t a significant cross to bear for some couples. As far as I know the particular monitor that we have can take into account a variety of different medical issues that effect the woman. It may give a larger window of abstinence for some couples but it is worth researching.
It’s irrelevant to tell me that I “have little experience of NFP”. That doesn’t change the Church’s teaching. Yes, it might be hard for some couples but the whole point of my comment is that I’m suggesting a way that might possibly make it easier.
Disclaimer: 5 to 8 days when the device is able to easily read the cycle. It also has to re-adjust after each pregnancy which could mean months of abstinence if you need to avoid.I’m aware it doesn’t change the Church’s teaching.
My husband and I are healthy, but we have been abstaining for over a month because breastfeeding makes my cycles very hard to interpret. I agree that I think it’s worth it to research, but I would caution you about saying things like “5 to 8 days of abstinence.” For many couples, they end up in situations where that’s not their reality and then they feel betrayed and lied to because they got the impression that NFP was supposed to be easy, and frequently it’s not.
I think ladycomp is one of the best products on the market. When we did nfp it was perfect for us. However, you should never advertise it like that. In extreme circumstances where a person could be harmed or die the most conservative forms of nfp should be used. So it isn’t just “red light” days, it’s the couple months it takes for lady comp to adjust coupled with the fact that each couple is different. My sometimes it’s quite common for red/yellow lights to last for 14-20 days.Disclaimer: 5 to 8 days when the device is able to easily read the cycle. It also has to re-adjust after each pregnancy which could mean months of abstinence if you need to avoid.
Oh, yeah. I’ve been married four and a half years and I have yet to experience a method of NFP that requires only five to eight days of abstinence. Maybe it’s that way for a lucky few, but I think it’s the exception rather than the rule.I think ladycomp is one of the best products on the market. When we did nfp it was perfect for us. However, you should never advertise it like that. In extreme circumstances where a person could be harmed or die the most conservative forms of nfp should be used. So it isn’t just “red light” days, it’s the couple months it takes for lady comp to adjust coupled with the fact that each couple is different. My sometimes it’s quite common for red/yellow lights to last for 14-20 days.
Medical issues further complicate this.
The worst way to “sell” a type of nfp is to talk about how little you have to abstain. Especially when the gravity of the situation is heavy.
This can cause incredible frustration with nfp and with spouses.
Your suggestion was perfect up and until that one point.
And that’s not including lady time.Oh, yeah. I’ve been married four and a half years and I have yet to experience a method of NFP that requires only five to eight days of abstinence. Maybe it’s that way for a lucky few, but I think it’s the exception rather than the rule.
5? I should think that that’s cutting it awfully close–not a problem in a “we’d kind of like to wait another few months for Reason, but it’s not the end of the world if we get pregnant now” situation, but in a life-or-death one…oof.Disclaimer: 5 to 8 days when the device is able to easily read the cycle. It also has to re-adjust after each pregnancy which could mean months of abstinence if you need to avoid.
And for those of us with a short luteal phase, even less so.And that’s not including lady time.
If I were trying to avoid, I would have maybe two weeks of the month where I could have sex. My fertile signs start right after my period finishes. So assuming we have sex only every other day, that’s seven times in a month.
Yes, what you describe is very typical. Anyone attempting NFP should expect that level of abstinence.And that’s not including lady time.
If I were trying to avoid, I would have maybe two weeks of the month where I could have sex. My fertile signs start right after my period finishes. So assuming we have sex only every other day, that’s seven times in a month.
There are TECHNICALLY six fertile days per cycle. The day of ovulation and five days before. But because you can determine those days with only minimal certainty, you have to consider yourself fertile for more days than just those 6. Most pre-ovulation days, if not all, need to be considered fertile in conservative NFP because you really never know when ovulation is going to happen. Very few women have textbook 28 day cycles that are exactly the same every single month. If you need to be conservative (as does the OP), it’s best to abstain for all of Phase 1 (pre ovulation) and all of Phase 2. You should limit intimacy to Phase 3 (starting four days after ovulation). That is at least 2-3 weeks of abstinence, most likely more.5? I should think that that’s cutting it awfully close–not a problem in a “we’d kind of like to wait another few months for Reason, but it’s not the end of the world if we get pregnant now” situation, but in a life-or-death one…oof.
Sperm can live up to 5 days or so in fertile mucus, an egg lasts 24-48 hours, and if you’re going to ovulate twice, it will be within 48 hours of the first ovulation. Most women have at least 3-4 days of fertile mucus pre-ovulation.
While I haven’t used the LadyComp personally, it’s based on temperature plus an algorithm, not unlike Marquette (hormone testing plus algorithm). In temping methods, isn’t 3 days post-ovulation-temperature-rise considered the bare minimum for determining ovulation–and that assuming no second ovulation? (Which, I grant, is rare, but certainly not unheard-of.)
So…five days pre-ovulation plus another three post-ovulation would have 8 days being a bare, bare minimum for abstinence. Too, bear in mind that if NFP is going to fail, it’s far more likely to fail in Phase I: all it takes is an early ovulation, or some long-living sperm, or a combo of the above. And that’s assuming very, very consistent cycles indeed–like, lengths within a day or two difference max.
I’m not “selling” anything. I made a suggestion and was highlighting the “best case scenario”. Sorry for being an optimist. Perhaps I should have been more clear. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that in many cases couples using lady-comp don’t have to abstain as often as couples using less accurate methods.I think ladycomp is one of the best products on the market. When we did nfp it was perfect for us. However, you should never advertise it like that. In extreme circumstances where a person could be harmed or die the most conservative forms of nfp should be used. So it isn’t just “red light” days, it’s the couple months it takes for lady comp to adjust coupled with the fact that each couple is different. My sometimes it’s quite common for red/yellow lights to last for 14-20 days.
Medical issues further complicate this.
The worst way to “sell” a type of nfp is to talk about how little you have to abstain. Especially when the gravity of the situation is heavy.
This can cause incredible frustration with nfp and with spouses.
Your suggestion was perfect up and until that one point.
It might be helpful for you to listen to others. Many of us have experience teaching or using these products under incredible circumstances. I outlined that the only problem with your statement was the unsafe and unrealistic claim that is impossible to make because of the uniqueness of each case. I’m glad you have interest and enthusiasm.I’m not “selling” anything. I made a suggestion and was highlighting the “best case scenario”. Sorry for being an optimist. Perhaps I should have been more clear. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that in many cases couples using lady-comp don’t have to abstain as often as couples using less accurate methods.
I’ve done quite a bit of research on this. I would say it’s quite a conservative method. The algorithm it uses is also programmed with the information to take many conditions and illnesses into account. Unless the condition is one that regularly throws off basal body temperature, it should be accurate.
Anyway…my point was that it’s POSSIBLE that that might be an option that allows the couple to engage in the marital act slightly more often. What’s wrong with saying that?