Vague criteria for annulments

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In the Eastern Orthodox Church you can divorce and remarry in spite of Jesus’ clear words. Consider me unimpressed with such orthodoxy.

You raise another important question. Modern church leaders are so afraid of offending anyone, that they let all sorts of abuses go uncommented upon. Why DO we ask detailed and probing questions at tribunals and have such blasé and careless marriage preparation programs that potentially allow people to unknowingly enter into invalid marriages?

I tend to think THAT is what needs tightening. If it’s clear that a couple cares little to nothing for Christ and really just wants Grandma to keep them in the will and to have a nice, traditional wedding photo backdrop, then it’s time to say no. Come back when you know what the sacrament of marriage actually is and can credibly claim to want to receive it.

Here’s a fine rant from a priest in the trenches:
reverendknow-it-all.blogspot.com/2009/10/rant-on-weddings.html
 
In the Eastern Orthodox Church you can divorce and remarry in spite of Jesus’ clear words. Consider me unimpressed with such orthodoxy.

You raise another important question. Modern church leaders are so afraid of offending anyone, that they let all sorts of abuses go uncommented upon. Why DO we ask detailed and probing questions at tribunals and have such blasé and careless marriage preparation programs that potentially allow people to unknowingly enter into invalid marriages?

I tend to think THAT is what needs tightening. If it’s clear that a couple cares little to nothing for Christ and really just wants Grandma to keep them in the will and to have a nice, traditional wedding photo backdrop, then it’s time to say no. Come back when you know what the sacrament of marriage actually is and can credibly claim to want to receive it.

Here’s a fine rant from a priest in the trenches:
reverendknow-it-all.blogspot.com/2009/10/rant-on-weddings.html
Cardinal Kasper has characterised some annulments as dishonest divorces. Which is better a Catholic dishonest divorce, or an Eastern Orthodox honest divorce?
 
That is your opinion, but not the factual situation. Further take a look at the number of annulments granted in 1929, 1931, 1932 and you will see numbers of the same order as 10.
My husband points out that in 1930, there were probably at least 10 people in the US who deserved an annulment because of unknown consanguinity.

10 is a ridiculously low number for anything in a large country.
 
Our understanding of various mental illnesses has progressed by leaps and bounds since 1930.

To take just one example, I was just looking up bipolar and divorce, and some sources say that bipolar people have a divorce rate of 90%.

psychologytoday.com/articles/200311/managing-bipolar-disorder

With those kinds of stats, is it really so hard to believe that at least a large percentage of people with bipolar might be incapable of marriage?
 
Deacon Jeff:

May God bless you for handling these cases. It is time consuming for everyone and I am forever grateful to the person who handled my case. What people may not understand completely is the person handling the case is doing a tremendous amount of grueling work as well.

This is not a matter of filling out a couple papers to submit and VOILA, you are annulled.

Mary.
 
As to the numbers in the U.S. I believe those numbers are so high for cultural reasons. We have a good mix of badly catechized catholics, yes. But catholics aren’t the only ones getting married and being held to the teachings of the Church. Converts and those of other faith or no faith traditions also marry each other and marry catholics. Many of those non-catholics were never taught that marriage is for life or that marriage requires fidelity or openenss to children and therefore did not consent to a marriage as taught by the Church.

. A good chunk of annulments are “Lack of Form” cases where catholics did not marry according to Canon Law.

Another good chunk are converts who were previously married and divorced who would like to marry in the Church or have a current marriage convalidated.

In those cases there is often more than one marriage that needs to be annulled. For example, Mary married, got divorced, and remarried to a man who had also been divorced. She wants to convert, but now needs to have not only her marriage annulled, but her husbands previous marriage also needs to be annulled in order for her to be able to convalidate her current marriage and then be received into the Church.

These cases pad the numbers. Instead of one couple needing one annulment you have one couple who needs multiple annulments. My friend is somewhat mildly interested in converting, but she has been married four times and her husband has been married two times. She would need three previous marriages annulled and he would need one previous marriage annulled. Between them, they’d account for four annulments!

As for psychological immaturity, speaks to consent. If one is so immature at the time of their ceremony that they are incapable of understanding or fulfilling the basic duties and responsibilities of marriage they are also incapable of consenting to a marriage. But saying that isn’t enough. The Tribunal also requires proof in the form of counseling reports, medical records, or one or more sessions with a psychologist the Tribunal recommends.
 
Cardinal Kasper has characterised some annulments as dishonest divorces. Which is better a Catholic dishonest divorce, or an Eastern Orthodox honest divorce?
I have no doubt that an unscrupulous man can ‘game’ the catholic tribunal system to get the result he wants. But it’s only likely if he KNOWS that he’s gaming the system. At that point, there’s no real harm done. He knows he is mocking God and the sacrament of matrimony and he’ll answer for it to the ultimate Judge. He isn’t getting away with anything.

I think it’s a far worse situation when an honest and broken man is told by his PRIEST that’s it’s OK for him to go ahead with a second marriage and commit what Christ clearly called adultery for the rest of his life. Culpability for that sin is shared by the priest who encouraged him to go forward and sin under a camouflage of virtue.

You can’t see that difference? How is the latter “honest” on the part of the Church and the former “dishonest?” The individuals, yes. Church, no. People are people and will sin, you and I as much as anybody else. You can’t eliminate that with any system or policy. But the solution is never to endorse their sin or to “help” them to see their sins as virtuous. At that point the system becomes complicit in the sin.

I think it’s a triumph of Catholicism that we recognized that Jesus didn’t say “whoever dresses up nicely and says certain words in front of a priest, let no man tear apart.” He said “Whom GOD has joined, let no men tear asunder.” (paraphrase from memory) If the couple never truly and genuinely gave themselves to each other then there was NO marriage there, appearances notwithstanding. That’s a profound distinction.
 
I have no doubt that an unscrupulous man can ‘game’ the catholic tribunal system to get the result he wants. But it’s only likely if he KNOWS that he’s gaming the system. At that point, there’s no real harm done. He knows he is mocking God and the sacrament of matrimony and he’ll answer for it to the ultimate Judge. He isn’t getting away with anything.

I think it’s a far worse situation when an honest and broken man is told by his PRIEST that’s it’s OK for him to go ahead with a second marriage and commit what Christ clearly called adultery for the rest of his life. Culpability for that sin is shared by the priest who encouraged him to go forward and sin under a camouflage of virtue.

You can’t see that difference? How is the latter “honest” on the part of the Church and the former “dishonest?” The individuals, yes. Church, no. People are people and will sin, you and I as much as anybody else. You can’t eliminate that with any system or policy. But the solution is never to endorse their sin or to “help” them to see their sins as virtuous. At that point the system becomes complicit in the sin.

I think it’s a triumph of Catholicism that we recognized that Jesus didn’t say “whoever dresses up nicely and says certain words in front of a priest, let no man tear apart.” He said “Whom GOD has joined, let no men tear asunder.” (paraphrase from memory) If the couple never truly and genuinely gave themselves to each other then there was NO marriage there, appearances notwithstanding. That’s a profound distinction.
Yes.
 
**With reasoning like this, is anyone in the USA really married? **Can the Roman Catholic Church be the true Church if it declares people to be married at one point in time, but then later on says that you were not really married sacramentally? Does God approve of people living together as a married couple, but in fact they are not really married?
Is this what God wants?
I have often wondered that myself!

We have a divorce rate near 50%. We have friends, family, faith traditions and the law tell us marriage can be and is dissolved by divorce. We have society telling us that a marriage can be anything the spouses want it to be…“open”, temporary, with or without children, for convenience, and so on. It’s not a big surprise that so many apply for and receive annulments considering the circumstances.
 
It’s literally impossible that only 10 people in the entire US deserved annulments in 1930, by even the strictest possible standards.
Yes, it is impossible. That was only the number they granted. Were there people who did not have the means emotional or financial to get an annulment? Did some women stay in marriages because they had no other choice? There were no reliable family planning methods available way back. Perhaps some women had a large family and an abusive husband who would demand sex and they had no way out of it. I don’t look back at the 30’s, 40’s 50’s or 60’s as the good old days in terms of marriage. They were not. Women only got the right to vote in 1920. Women just did not have choices or financial independence to leave abusive marriages.

Personally, I think the understanding we have today of marriage is much better due to the spiritual and emotional development we have had over time. I would not have wanted to be a woman in the 1920’s!

Also, on a side note, I’ve read some of St Augustine’s readings. Back in his day it was common for women to be beat by their husbands. One of his writings praises his mother for handling domestic abuse so well. (his father, her husband, beat her). Please let’s not look back and think things were rosy.
 
I know what I wanted to say: “There is nothing new under the sun”

We can not claim that there was some age of golden morality or marriage. Human nature is what it is and always has been.
 
For the posters on this thread that care to answer I am curious to know:

1: How many people do you know who filed for a Catholic annulment and of those, how many were granted and how many were not?

2: Were you ever a witness in the process for someone hoping to procure an annulment and what was your experience as one?

Mary.
 
For the posters on this thread that care to answer I am curious to know:

1: How many people do you know who filed for a Catholic annulment and of those, how many were granted and how many were not?

2: Were you ever a witness in the process for someone hoping to procure an annulment and what was your experience as one?

Mary.
I only know one person who has filed for annulment and it’s me. I’m still waiting on a decision.

I guess I could say I have been a witness as I had to submit my own testimony.

I know a boatload of catholics who have been married, divorced, and remarried between friends and family members. My step-fathers family is large and catholic. My husbands family is the same. Not a one was married in the Church and not a one has any interest in either annulments or convalidation.
 
I only know one person who has filed for annulment and it’s me. I’m still waiting on a decision.

I guess I could say I have been a witness as I had to submit my own testimony.

I know a boatload of catholics who have been married, divorced, and remarried between friends and family members. My step-fathers family is large and catholic. My husbands family is the same. Not a one was married in the Church and not a one has any interest in either annulments or convalidation.
I shall keep you in my prayers as it can be a long wait. This decision was always in the back of my mind and in my heart as well knowing my ability to remarry someday and remain in good standing in the Church and able to receive the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ during Mass was at stake and in the hands of the people God put in the Church.

I know one person who did not receive an annulment and promptly left for another Church.
I almost left the Church myself to be a Lutheran Missouri Synod and the Pastor there told me most everyone Catholic he had converted were couples where one or both were divorced and remarried. They had not wanted to participate in the annulment process believing it was “man made” and the process not the theology behind it was manmade.
I decided I would “do the right thing” and wait it out.

I don’t know why it was so hard for me because I am a “business person” at heart LOL and not really emotive or emotional but this tugged at my heart.

Sure I could remain single, but I wanted to keep the door open for remarriage someday and live in a Catholic marriage.

The best advice I ever received was to file to obtain an annulment soon after your divorce for as the years go by details fade and witnesses forget. Thank goodness I did so for now my marriage is a remote memory in my mind and heart.

I pray for all those in the Church struggling with this issue. Those that feel it’s far to easy to obtain, those who leave and say forget it, those who stuck with an abusive spouse for years, and the many many people who are the face of those that finally take the first step to file for an annulment.

Mary.
 
For the posters on this thread that care to answer I am curious to know:

1: How many people do you know who filed for a Catholic annulment and of those, how many were granted and how many were not?

2: Were you ever a witness in the process for someone hoping to procure an annulment and what was your experience as one?

Mary.
One involved a couple in which the wife submitted a request based partly on her husband’s incapacity to stick with a long-term commitment. He testified that he did understand the commitment, did understand it was for life, did have the capacity to have stuck around, but he just didn’t feel like it, and so he left. The marriage was found to be valid.

In another case (in which I testified), the questionaire very specifically asked for evidence and not conclusions. They didn’t want amateur psychoanalysis. They wanted to know what went on before the marriage, what went on after, what was said and done, and so on. The husband had always talked as if rules didn’t apply to him, although behind the back of authority. To them, he gave the answers he thought would make him look good. That marriage was found to be invalid, even though the couple had been married for many years and had children as old as high school. The children, who had witnessed more of the marriage than I had, had a more severe attitude against their father than I had. They said they were glad when their parents divorced and wished that their mother had left their dad and his abusive and unfaithful ways long before she did.
I am becoming increasingly disturbed by some of the vague reasons that I hear given for annulments. Reasons like “psychological immaturity” sound extremely dubious to me. I have no problem at all with the concept of annulments, but it had always been my understanding that they should only be granted in a few, very specific circumstances…

I know there are probably other valid reasons for an annulment, too, but it needs to be something along the same lines as the list above. It seems to me that if one or more of these criteria are met, the marriage probably wouldn’t last very long anyway. But in reading Catholic blogs and forums, I keep hearing stories of people married many years with several children who still get annulments. It seems to me that if two baptized Catholics get married in the Church, go through marriage prep, try their best to follow church teachings, stay married for many years and have several children, there is a 99% chance the marriage is valid.

This doesn’t mean they won’t get divorced. But if they do get divorced, they need to stay single for life unless their spouse dies or they reconcile. Re-marriage without an annulment is adultery, full stop, and shouldn’t be allowed. I am NOT arguing that they should be allowed to remarry. But I do think that vague psychobabble B.S. has no place in annulments.

Once I posted on this forum about some problems in my marriage, and a couple people suggested that my marriage might be invalid. I found this EXTREMELY offensive. It was very disturbing how quickly people jumped to that conclusion. When we got married, my husband and I were both devout, practicing Catholics who married in the Church, dated for several years before marriage, talked about absolutely everything, and obeyed all Church teachings. If our marriage isn’t valid, no marriage is valid.

The bottom line is that it should not be that hard to contract a valid marriage! It should not be something only for super-holy elite Catholics with PhDs in the Theology of the Body.
I think what you are missing is this: If someone attempts marriage in good faith, believing it to be valid, but find later that in fact that marriage did not actually have any realistic chance of lasting for as long as both spouses lived, justice cannot hold that someone to renounce all chance to live out their vocation to marriage within a real valid marriage.

I think we live in a time where there is a great deal of pretense standing in for reality. Pretense can last for a surprisingly long time, but eventually it will wilt. Very often, a couple stays together for a long time, but what you can’t see from the outside is that they stayed together not because their marriage had a true foundation, but out of a combination of force of will and inertia. For instance, perhaps one spouse is an adulterer–was in the beginning, was throughout the marriage. What can change after many years and many children is that the other spouse is finally forced to admit that he or she cannot fix the other person, nor make up for the fatal flaw of ingrained infidelity or ingrained abusiveness. There can get to be a point where no amount of fidelity on one side can keep on compensating for an enduring lack of fidelity on the other.

That is not to say, however, that people never leave a valid marriage under the pretense that it could not work. I believe that happens because I’ve had people tell me that they realized too late that they did that very thing. They believed their marriage suffered from an immovable flaw, and found out later that they were the flaw and they could change. Their marriage had failed not out of incapacity, as they had believed, but out of hard-heartedness. (This was a non-Catholic telling me this, so there was no declaration of nullity involved.) That can happen, and discerning from the outside whether a person is incapable or hard-hearted can be very difficult. The tribunals have to do their best to judge the evidence they have, and it is evidence kept secret from everyone else. I think we do well to accept that we haven’t heard or seen all the evidence nor sat in on the deliberations of the tribunals, and so we cannot say. There are people at the Vatican who are privy to these details, and it is their job to say whether these judgments are being made with a right understanding.
 
I know only one person who has filed for declaration of nullity (THEY ARE NOT CALLED ANNULMENTS) and she was denied. I do not know if it was at the parish level or the diocesan tribune. They told her to go back to her husband and try to work it out.
 
I know only one person who has filed for declaration of nullity (THEY ARE NOT CALLED ANNULMENTS)…
Apparently you know more than the Catholic bishops who call them annulments. If they are not called annulments as you have shouted to us here, can you kindly explain why the American Catholic bishops call them annulments?
“Annulment
An annulment is a declaration by a Church tribunal (a Catholic church court) that a marriage thought to be valid according to Church law actually fell short of at least one of the essential elements required for a binding union.”

usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/annulment/
 
I shall keep you in my prayers as it can be a long wait. This decision was always in the back of my mind and in my heart as well knowing my ability to remarry someday and remain in good standing in the Church and able to receive the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord, Jesus Christ during Mass was at stake and in the hands of the people God put in the Church.

I know one person who did not receive an annulment and promptly left for another Church.
I almost left the Church myself to be a Lutheran Missouri Synod and the Pastor there told me most everyone Catholic he had converted were couples where one or both were divorced and remarried. They had not wanted to participate in the annulment process believing it was “man made” and the process not the theology behind it was manmade.
I decided I would “do the right thing” and wait it out.

I don’t know why it was so hard for me because I am a “business person” at heart LOL and not really emotive or emotional but this tugged at my heart.

Sure I could remain single, but I wanted to keep the door open for remarriage someday and live in a Catholic marriage.

The best advice I ever received was to file to obtain an annulment soon after your divorce for as the years go by details fade and witnesses forget. Thank goodness I did so for now my marriage is a remote memory in my mind and heart.

I pray for all those in the Church struggling with this issue. Those that feel it’s far to easy to obtain, those who leave and say forget it, those who stuck with an abusive spouse for years, and the many many people who are the face of those that finally take the first step to file for an annulment.

Mary.
Thank you for your prayers. 18 months this month since my case was accepted and I have yet to receive a first decision. It’s making me batty!

When my DH came back to the faith and I felt the call to convert I must admit I have been tempted to just throw up my hands and say “To heck with it! Let’s go to the Lutheran church down the road!” But the Lutheran service just doesn’t have the fullness and meaning to me that the Mass does, so I wait until I can be received.
 
Thank you for your prayers. 18 months this month since my case was accepted and I have yet to receive a first decision. It’s making me batty!

When my DH came back to the faith and I felt the call to convert I must admit I have been tempted to just throw up my hands and say “To heck with it! Let’s go to the Lutheran church down the road!” But the Lutheran service just doesn’t have the fullness and meaning to me that the Mass does, so I wait until I can be received.
I actually attended a Lutheran Missouri Synod Church AND the Catholic church during a year of this process as I too thought I was ready to throw the towel in because of what a long and grueling process it was and how impersonal it seemed to me. I’d go to both services on Sunday.

I felt just like you did as you express it “doesn’t have the fullness and meaning” and I returned to the Catholic Church alone after a year.

Mary.
 
I know only one person who has filed for declaration of nullity (THEY ARE NOT CALLED ANNULMENTS) and she was denied. I do not know if it was at the parish level or the diocesan tribune. They told her to go back to her husband and try to work it out.
It is my understand that in the US at least the Church will not investigate cases prior to a civil divorce. A marriage where a couple has legally married but not gone through with a divorce is given the presumption of validity or at least the assumption that defects can perhaps be addressed.
 
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