Valid Baptism?

[christcnection1]

A friend of mine received the Sacrament of Baptism as a child in the Catholic Church at the request of her mother. Unfortunately, my friend never intended to follow the Lord. If fact, she never accepted the faith. It was essentially forced on her. She was a teenager, certainly past the age of reason.

Is her Baptism therefore invalid as a result of her lack of faith and desire to follow the Lord and His Church?

If not, wouldn’t the Church then be justified in baptizing those who don’t believe, essentially against their will?

Obviously I believe that would be wrong; I’m just trying to make a distinction assuming the Baptism was valid.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

A friend of mine received the Sacrament of Baptism as a child in the Catholic Church at the request of her mother. Unfortunately, my friend never intended to follow the Lord. If fact, she never accepted the faith. It was essentially forced on her. She was a teenager, certainly past the age of reason.

Is her Baptism therefore invalid as a result of her lack of faith and desire to follow the Lord and His Church?

If not, wouldn’t the Church then be justified in baptizing those who don’t believe, essentially against their will?

Obviously I believe that would be wrong; I’m just trying to make a distinction assuming the Baptism was valid.

Would you please clarify –

you first say this person was baptized as a CHILD
then describe her as a TEENAGER.

Which is it?

 

[jj2011]

A friend of mine received the Sacrament of Baptism as a child in the Catholic Church at the request of her mother. Unfortunately, my friend never intended to follow the Lord. If fact, she never accepted the faith. It was essentially forced on her. She was a teenager, certainly past the age of reason.

Is her Baptism therefore invalid as a result of her lack of faith and desire to follow the Lord and His Church?

If not, wouldn’t the Church then be justified in baptizing those who don’t believe, essentially against their will?

Obviously I believe that would be wrong; I’m just trying to make a distinction assuming the Baptism was valid.

Lack of faith in the recipient would not make the baptism invalid.

 

[Tietjen]

A friend of mine received the Sacrament of Baptism as a child in the Catholic Church at the request of her mother. Unfortunately, my friend never intended to follow the Lord. If fact, she never accepted the faith. It was essentially forced on her. She was a teenager, certainly past the age of reason.

Is her Baptism therefore invalid as a result of her lack of faith and desire to follow the Lord and His Church?

Here is what the Code of Canon Law says on the subject:
Code of Canon Law #865:

Can. 865 §1. For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.

So, if you are saying that your friend did not wish to be baptised as an adult/teen, then perhaps it was not a valid baptism.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

A friend of mine received the Sacrament of Baptism as a child in the Catholic Church at the request of her mother. Unfortunately, my friend never intended to follow the Lord. If fact, she never accepted the faith. It was essentially forced on her. She was a teenager, certainly past the age of reason.

Is her Baptism therefore invalid as a result of her lack of faith and desire to follow the Lord and His Church?

If not, wouldn’t the Church then be justified in baptizing those who don’t believe, essentially against their will?

Obviously I believe that would be wrong; I’m just trying to make a distinction assuming the Baptism was valid.

Your post is not very clear as to her age when Baptized. In one sentence you say she was a child, in another you call her a teenager certainly past the age of reason.

 

[christcnection1]

Your post is not very clear as to her age when Baptized. In one sentence you say she was a child, in another you call her a teenager certainly past the age of reason.

Most teenagers are still children in my opinion. Her age was about thirteen or fourteen.

 

[christcnection1]

Here is what the Code of Canon Law says on the subject:

So, if you are saying that your friend did not wish to be baptised as an adult/teen, then perhaps it was not a valid baptism.

Yes, I believe her motivation was keep her mother from getting upset. It was not a personal choice she made to follow God through the Church. She did not want to be there. In fact, she said she found the entire thing an embarrassment because she was the only one that age receiving the Sacrament.

 

[christcnection1]

Would you please clarify –

you first say this person was baptized as a CHILD
then describe her as a TEENAGER.

Which is it?

Teenagers can’t be children? I believe most of them are.

She was both a child and a teenager, about thirteen or fourteen years of age.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Teenagers can’t be children? I believe most of them are.

She was both a child and a teenager, about thirteen or fourteen years of age.

For sake of discussion and giving you some useful (name removed by moderator)ut actual age is not a small thing.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Teenagers can’t be children? I believe most of them are.

She was both a child and a teenager, about thirteen or fourteen years of age.

No teenagers are not children according to the Canoon Law of the Church. The law of adult Baptism applies to any person under Catechetical Age about 7 years old. The law considers a person under Catechetical Age to be an infant and their specific consent is not required for validity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

A friend of mine received the Sacrament of Baptism as a child in the Catholic Church at the request of her mother. Unfortunately, my friend never intended to follow the Lord. If fact, she never accepted the faith. It was essentially forced on her. She was a teenager, certainly past the age of reason.

Is her Baptism therefore invalid as a result of her lack of faith and desire to follow the Lord and His Church?

If not, wouldn’t the Church then be justified in baptizing those who don’t believe, essentially against their will?

Obviously I believe that would be wrong; I’m just trying to make a distinction assuming the Baptism was valid.

Your Friend merely needs to speak to a priest. It may be, that although her faith wasn’t there, when she was Baptized, it is now.

Also, was she confirmed? Confirmation, is part of Baptismal rite for adults. If not, she can be Confirmed and complete the process, out of her own free will.

Jim

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Lack of faith in the recipient would not make the baptism invalid.

Correct. The baptism is valid if it is accomplished with:

1. Valid matter (water)
2. Valid form (Trinitarian)
3. Valid intention of the ministers (intends to do what the Church intends)

Seems to me the baptism valid.

Nonetheless, the point is irrelevant unless (and until) the person desires full communion with the Catholic Church. At that time, a determination of the pastor needs to be made as to whether the prior baptism was valid. If doubtful, the pastor would “conditionally baptize” the person desiring full communion. If the pastor determined that the baptism was valid, then the person would be received into the Catholic Church through Confirmation (if that had yet to be received) or through Confession.

As for “against her will.” Why didn’t she express here will at the time? Seems kinda inconsistent to me. At that age, the priest would have asked her to respond on her own behalf. If she responded in the positive, then the priest would have no way of knowing that it was “against her will”…that’s precisely why they ask first. Sounds like the person in question is not referring to her “WILL” but to her “WANT.” However, “will” is not the same as “want.”

I "WANT"t to skip work tomorrow and spend my day fishing, however, that’s probably not what I shall “WILL.”

In the final analysis, according to the Council of Florence the validity of the Holy Sacraments is dependent solely upon 1) matter, 2) form, & 3) intent of the minister.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Here is what the Code of Canon Law says on the subject…

Originally Posted by Code of Canon Law #865
Can. 865 §1. For an adult to be baptized, the person must have manifested the intention to receive baptism, have been instructed sufficiently about the truths of the faith and Christian obligations, and have been tested in the Christian life through the catechumenate. The adult is also to be urged to have sorrow for personal sins.

The canon is not pertaining to “VALIDITY” of the Sacrament, but “licitness.” This canon establishes a disciplinary norm, not validity norms.

Nonetheless, the rite of Baptism asks the person who has attained the age of reason to manifest their will with regard to receipt of baptism. Q: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” A:Faith. Unless she screamed “No, I don’t want to be baptized,” and the priest did it anyway, then the baptism was not unlawful with regard to manifest will.

 

[christcnection1]

For sake of discussion and giving you some useful (name removed by moderator)ut actual age is not a small thing.

Thanks for answering the question.

 

[christcnection1]

As for “against her will.” Why didn’t she express here will at the time? Seems kinda inconsistent to me. At that age, the priest would have asked her to respond on her own behalf. If she responded in the positive, then the priest would have no way of knowing that it was “against her will”…that’s precisely why they ask first. Sounds like the person in question is not referring to her “WILL” but to her “WANT.” However, “will” is not the same as “want.”

I don’t think it’s complex or contradictory. She went through with the Sacrament because she was essentially forced to by her mother. It was never her desire; therefore, technically you are correct. She still decided to do it. However, her intention was never to follow the Lord.

I "WANT"t to skip work tomorrow and spend my day fishing, however, that’s probably not what I shall “WILL.”

In the final analysis, according to the Council of Florence the validity of the Holy Sacraments is dependent solely upon 1) matter, 2) form, & 3) intent of the minister.

I’m likely misunderstanding you here, but if I dumped a glass of water on someone with the right intent and the right words, could I validly baptize a nonbeliever?

 

[christcnection1]

No teenagers are not children according to the Canoon Law of the Church. The law of adult Baptism applies to any person under Catechetical Age about 7 years old. The law considers a person under Catechetical Age to be an infant and their specific consent is not required for validity.

So what I here you saying is that someone past the age of seven is an adult?

Please correct me.

 

[christcnection1]

Your Friend merely needs to speak to a priest. It may be, that although her faith wasn’t there, when she was Baptized, it is now.

Also, was she confirmed? Confirmation, is part of Baptismal rite for adults. If not, she can be Confirmed and complete the process, out of her own free will.

Jim

Unfortunately she has no desire right now to follow the Lord or join the Church. I do not believe she was Confirmed.

 

[christcnection1]

For sake of discussion and giving you some useful (name removed by moderator)ut actual age is not a small thing.

Never said it was. I said she was a teenager from the start. If you believe that all teenagers are adults, I can live with that. However, this still doesn’t answer my question.

 

[st_felicity]

From the CCC

**IV. **The Sacraments of Salvation
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. the Father always hears the prayer of his Son’s Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.
1128 This is the meaning of the Church’s affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed”), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

I think that means she was validly baptised whether she was there 100% willingly or not.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Never said it was. I said she was a teenager from the start. If you believe that all teenagers are adults, I can live with that. However, this still doesn’t answer my question.

Point is you should have started and stayed with a description that reflected her age for folks reading even if only as a courtesy.