Valid Holy Orders or Not?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anglican_Monk
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There is an article dealing with the invalidity of Anglican orders that was published in the “Catholic Encyclopedia” of 1910. I presume that there was special interest in this at the time, because the Catholic decision Anglican orders are invalid was so recent then. I don’t know if this article will help; I am just providing it in case it does. This article is at: newadvent.org/cathen/01491a.htm
I am posting a link this general article in case is helps. If someone was ordained by the Polish National Catholic Church? This may be a significant factor. Something about the Catholic view, at least, of the validity of their orders can be seen at www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur395.htm
 
Good stuff…But, Dom Gregory Dix in his lillte book “The Question of Anglican Orders” and Vernon Staley in “The Catholic Religion” both point out that the very objections, the offering of the Eucharistic Sacrifice not being stated in explicit terms, that Pope Leo XIII had with Anglican Orders is missing in the earliest Roman Rite of the ordination
of a priest and the early Mediaeval Ordination rites as well. The language was replaced with…“Take thou the authority to preach the Word of God, and to minister the Holy Sacraments.” As stated by both men in their respective books this shows the Eucharistic Sacrifice is not missing from the rite of ordination; if anything it has expanded the duties of a priest in the rewording.

Can’t remember who asked the question…but, yes there is a sacramental conferral of grace in the Eucharist.
 
Good stuff…But, Dom Gregory Dix in his lillte book “The Question of Anglican Orders” and Vernon Staley in “The Catholic Religion” both point out that the very objections, the offering of the Eucharistic Sacrifice not being stated in explicit terms, that Pope Leo XIII had with Anglican Orders is missing in the earliest Roman Rite of the ordination
of a priest and the early Mediaeval Ordination rites as well. The language was replaced with…“Take thou the authority to preach the Word of God, and to minister the Holy Sacraments.” As stated by both men in their respective books this shows the Eucharistic Sacrifice is not missing from the rite of ordination; if anything it has expanded the duties of a priest in the rewording.

Can’t remember who asked the question…but, yes there is a sacramental conferral of grace in the Eucharist.
As I said, there are rites that the RCC accepts as conferring orders validly that resemble the ordinal, in that; rites which developed organically within the Church. Which is why I said the question of form and of intent are intertwined in Apostolicae curea. The judgement in *Apostolciae curae *is that the Ordinal had that sacerdotal language deliberately surpressed, considering the context in which it was composed. Which rendered the form itself invalid. And the use of the form (per Clark, op. cit.) in the consecration of ++Parker in 1559, demonstrated invalid intent, a positive intent not to do what the Church does in that sacramental action. The two points must be taken together.

Not only Dix and Staley, but the two CoE Archbishops in their reply to Apostolicae curae, Saepius Officio miss out on that, somewhat.

And there you have an answer to the question of grace, from another Anglican.

GKC
 
There is an article dealing with the invalidity of Anglican orders that was published in the “Catholic Encyclopedia” of 1910. I presume that there was special interest in this at the time, because the Catholic decision Anglican orders are invalid was so recent then. I don’t know if this article will help; I am just providing it in case it does. This article is at: newadvent.org/cathen/01491a.htm
I am posting a link this general article in case is helps. If someone was ordained by the Polish National Catholic Church? This may be a significant factor. Something about the Catholic view, at least, of the validity of their orders can be seen at www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur395.htm
The first link is a fair statement of the RCC position, though parts of it are historically arguable. The 2nd link is about as I understand the subject.

GKC
 
As I said, there are rites that the RCC accepts as conferring orders validly that resemble the ordinal, in that; rites which developed organically within the Church. Which is why I said the question of form and of intent are intertwined in Apostolicae curea. The judgement in *Apostolciae curae *is that the Ordinal had that sacerdotal language deliberately surpressed, considering the context in which it was composed. Which rendered the form itself invalid. And the use of the form (per Clark, op. cit.) in the consecration of ++Parker in 1559, demonstrated invalid intent, a positive intent not to do what the Church does in that sacramental action. The two points must be taken together.

Not only Dix and Staley, but the two CoE Archbishops in their reply to Apostolicae curae, Saepius Officio miss out on that, somewhat.

And there you have an answer to the question of grace, from another Anglican.

GKC
👍 great explanation…i think the key word misses (even me) is “deliberately suppressed”…can you explain this further?

And what did the 39 articles play in AC?
 
Not merely politics, but all that stew together. Main point: the judgement on Anglican orders, in Apostolicae curae, is based on an intertwined judgement of sacramental form (in the ordinal) and sacramental intent.

Here’s a start. One of the last times I addressed this point here, slightly changed. I now quote me:

For a number of reasons, which normally are not considered in discussions in venues like this, in 1896, Pope Leo XIII issued an Apostolic Letter, Apostolicae curae, which made a number of assertions and judgements on Anglican orders, summed up by saying that they were absolutely null and utterly void. Hence Anglicans cannot confect such sacraments as require apostolic succession and valid orders. This judgement should be affirmed by all RCs, at the appropriate level of theological certainty. Anglicans are open to a wider variety of reactions.

The sad and lengthy story of the subject is woven from many strands: historical, political, personal and theological. What I deal with is the theological, in such places as this. The judgment on Anglican orders in AC was based upon a supposed invalidity of two elements required for a valid sacrament: an intertwined consideration of sacramental form and sacramental intent. Each was judged as invalid, but each has to be considered in conjunction with the other to reach that conclusion. Technical details are involved: the invalid form was judged invalid for its failure to name the specific office to which the subject was being raised, and to note the full sacerdotal power of that office (i.e. to confect the sacrifice of the Eucharist). The form of the rite in question was found in the Edwardine Ordinal, which was used from around 1549, and replaced the Pontifical still used in Henry’s day, It was not unique in not naming the specific order to be conveyed, or its specific authority. Other rites that did not do so were considered by Rome to adequately convey valid orders. But it was not the fact that those elements were absent from the Edwardine ordinal, but that they were (apparently) deliberately suppressed, that made the form invalid, in Rome’s eyes.

The ordinal itself does not reflect sacramental intent, which inheres in the sacramental minister, in a particular sacramental action. As Apostolicae curae notes, this is normally considered an internal situation not accessible to judgement. If all other sacramental factors are normal; that is, valid in themselves, the sacramental intent is also considered to meet the standard for validity, to intend to do what the Church does (facere quod facit ecclesia, in that sacramental action. However, if there is some sacramental factor that might be used as an indicator of the internal intent of the minister, this might be considered as a means to permit a determinatio ex adiunctus of the sacramental intent. In* Apostolicae curae*, this was judged to be the use of the invalid form of the Ordinal, in the consecration of Archbishop Parker in 1559. ++Parker is a bottleneck in the Anglican episcopate.Hence if he was invalidly consecrated, apostolic succession is broken.

It is, in fact, not obvious just whose sacramental intent is meant, in Apostolicae curae, but the intent of the consecrators of ++Parker is taken as the correct interpretation. The work of (then Jesuit priest ) Francis Clark, ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION is the best exposition on this point. For the best understanding of the entire mess, I always recommend Fr. John J. Hughes’ ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID, which concentrates on the personal, historical and political points, and STEWARDS OF THE LORD, which concentrates on the theological. Other titles are also available.

Much historical detail and other interesting minutia are passed over here, though, heaven knows, I’ve not always been so reticent. Possibly there are more questions.

After I smoke a pipe. The subject is long, tangled, and sad.

GKC
Outstanding summary that I will save in document 👍
 
comodrmac…You’re correct. This question, as we say down here, has been beat more than a dead dog…in other words no one is going to change their mind if they alread have it set.

Thanks for all the info. I’ll check it out and be back.

Blessings to you all…a brother in XP,
Anglican Monk
 
👍 great explanation…i think the key word misses (even me) is “deliberately suppressed”…can you explain this further?

And what did the 39 articles play in AC?
The assumption is that those who wrote the Ordinal were of the reformed side of the Anglican spectrum, and intended to change the concept of what a priest was. Hence they so worded the Ordinal. Other historical rites, such as the Ordinal of St. Hippolytus, among a number of others, that Rome considers as conveying orders validly, likewise lack the full character which the Edwardine Ordinal lacks, but the logic is that these rites grew organically, with no supposition that anything untoward was afoot in their origins.

The Articles played no part whatsoever.

Same is true for many Anglicans, re: the Articles.

GKC
 
Outstanding summary that I will save in document 👍
Always consider that I may be wrong, in some minute detail.

You would have loved the 6-8 page, Reader’s Digest condensed version of the whole sad tale, that I put up many years ago.

Maybe.

GKC
 
Always consider that I may be wrong, in some minute detail.

You would have loved the 6-8 page, Reader’s Digest condensed version of the whole sad tale, that I put up many years ago.

Maybe.

GKC
Eloquent but more importantly factual; what does a Lutheran know of the Anglican Church? Now we know much more!
 
comodrmac…You’re correct. This question, as we say down here, has been beat more than a dead dog…in other words no one is going to change their mind if they alread have it set.

Thanks for all the info. I’ll check it out and be back.

Blessings to you all…a brother in XP,
Anglican Monk
Whatever its conditions, and I’ve worn the poor thing out myself, over the past 10 years here, it is the RCC position on the subject, and should be affirmed by all RCs, at the appropriate level of theological certainty appertaining there to. Sententia ad fidem pertinens, maybe, but don’t take my word on it.

GKC
 
Hello GKC.
I don’t think you can go to confession to a PNCC priest, illicit sacraments not being capable of conveying grace. But I’m always willing to learn.

SSPX are validly ordained. But they are not licitly ordained. Nor may they licitly function in their orders, though they do so validly. Licit refers to the authority (through full communion with Rome), to exercise priestly functions. Form and matter are not a part of that equation, assuming the form (rite) and matter (imposition of hands) are valid and validly followed. And other sacramental requirements such as intent and subject, likewise.

You are playing around with the correct idea, when you say “without permission”. That is the authority to exercise their office. Otherwise, it is illicit.

On the question of who can validly ordain, see Ott, FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA, p. 458.

GKC
Here is what I found out about the PNCC’s Sacraments: Dialogue with the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, with the approval of the Holy See, led in 1996 to an arrangement that Laurence J. Orzell has called “limited inter-communion”.[12] What this means is that the Catholic Church recognises the validity of the sacraments of the PNCC, making applicable to its members the provisions of canon 844 §§2–3 of the Code of Canon Law. This canon allows Catholics who are unable to approach a Catholic minister to receive, under certain conditions, the sacraments of Reconciliation, Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from “non-Catholic ministers, ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid”, and declares it licit for Catholic priests to administer the same three sacraments to members of churches which the Holy See judges to be in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as the Eastern Churches, if they ask for the sacraments of their own accord and are properly disposed.[13] Obstacles to full communion include different understandings regarding the role of the Pope, the level of involvement of the laity in church governance and the PNCC reception of some former Roman Catholic clergy, most of whom subsequently married.[13]

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur395.HTM

Notice it only says three of the Sacraments are okay to receive Eucharist, Penance, and the Anointing of the Sick, NOT HOLY ORDERS. And that is according to the current Codes. I have more, but I’ve got to leave for Church. So bye for now.

Glenda
 
Even Penance can only be received from PNCC cleric in danger of death, otherwise the PNCC cleric has no faculty to hear the Catholic penitents confession. The same applies for SSPX.
 
Hello GKC.

Here is what I found out about the PNCC’s Sacraments: Dialogue with the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, with the approval of the Holy See, led in 1996 to an arrangement that Laurence J. Orzell has called “limited inter-communion”.[12] What this means is that the Catholic Church recognises the validity of the sacraments of the PNCC, making applicable to its members the provisions of canon 844 §§2–3 of the Code of Canon Law. This canon allows Catholics who are unable to approach a Catholic minister to receive, under certain conditions, the sacraments of Reconciliation, Eucharist and Anointing of the Sick from “non-Catholic ministers, ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid”, and declares it licit for Catholic priests to administer the same three sacraments to members of churches which the Holy See judges to be in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as the Eastern Churches, if they ask for the sacraments of their own accord and are properly disposed.[13] Obstacles to full communion include different understandings regarding the role of the Pope, the level of involvement of the laity in church governance and the PNCC reception of some former Roman Catholic clergy, most of whom subsequently married.[13]

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur395.HTM

Notice it only says three of the Sacraments are okay to receive Eucharist, Penance, and the Anointing of the Sick, NOT HOLY ORDERS. And that is according to the current Codes. I have more, but I’ve got to leave for Church. So bye for now.

Glenda
Bring on the more, when you can. I know of Canon 844, but somehow I don’'t think I recall the 1996 change in its status, to qualify under that Canon, in the same sense as it addresses the Eastern Churches. Though I almost think, now that I read it that somewhere, somehow I’d heard it. As I said in the post, I didn’t think you could go , Something was sticking in my mind.

Learning is good, will bookmark the link. And thank you.

GKC
 
Hello GKC.

As promised, I’m back from Church. I found some more on the issue of Ordination at the USCCB among the PNCC and us. Seems the Bishops are working diligently to resolve the issue as per the wishes of St. John Paul II way back when, but the picture I’m getting is one of the PNCC’s for the most part do not wish to come back; they simply want us to recognize and acknowledge their competence and authenticity. But that is just my read on things. I’m also sure our Church, in the Latin Rite doesn’t actually acknowledge their Ordinations and each has to be examined when one priest of the PNCC attempts to return to the Roman Catholic Church and that is when the determination of whether or not their Ordination was in deed valid. The document I’m citing here says that the Bishops in the USCCB understand the “sensitive nature” of the issue of Ordination as it is a Sacrament that cannot be repeated, which is the same as Baptism. So, each clergyman wishing to return to Communion from the PNCC must be examined and** IF **it is determined that he has, 1) been validly Ordained, and 2) is fit for ministry, they will decide where he goes. The other issue I’m finding is a number of Catholic Priests, validly Ordained but wishing to marry left us for the PNCC after Ordination so they *could *marry and this is one of the reasons dialog is so stressed between us and them.

Anyway, I’m saying too much, so here is the citation of the document and it’s link:

The dialogue has also been examining the difficulties that arise when a clergyman leaves one of the churches and joins the other. The members are acutely aware of the sensitivity of this question. Neither church can sanction in any way the abandonment of the ministry or the ordination commitment by any of its clergy. Such a decision entails serious canonical consequences such as excommunication and dismissal (Roman Catholic) or suspension and deposition (Polish National Catholic). In view of possible misunderstandings, the members determined that it would not be appropriate to offer recommendations on the handling of these cases at the present time. In the course of their discussion, however, the members sought to identify ways in which these situations could be handled that would minimize the amount of scandal they cause.

usccb.org/news/2011/11-079.cfm

Hope this helps clear things up a bit.

Glenda
 
Hello GKC.

As promised, I’m back from Church. I found some more on the issue of Ordination at the USCCB among the PNCC and us. Seems the Bishops are working diligently to resolve the issue as per the wishes of St. John Paul II way back when, but the picture I’m getting is one of the PNCC’s for the most part do not wish to come back; they simply want us to recognize and acknowledge their competence and authenticity. But that is just my read on things. I’m also sure our Church, in the Latin Rite doesn’t actually acknowledge their Ordinations and each has to be examined when one priest of the PNCC attempts to return to the Roman Catholic Church and that is when the determination of whether or not their Ordination was in deed valid. The document I’m citing here says that the Bishops in the USCCB understand the “sensitive nature” of the issue of Ordination as it is a Sacrament that cannot be repeated, which is the same as Baptism. So, each clergyman wishing to return to Communion from the PNCC must be examined and** IF **it is determined that he has, 1) been validly Ordained, and 2) is fit for ministry, they will decide where he goes. The other issue I’m finding is a number of Catholic Priests, validly Ordained but wishing to marry left us for the PNCC after Ordination so they *could *marry and this is one of the reasons dialog is so stressed between us and them.

Anyway, I’m saying too much, so here is the citation of the document and it’s link:

The dialogue has also been examining the difficulties that arise when a clergyman leaves one of the churches and joins the other. The members are acutely aware of the sensitivity of this question. Neither church can sanction in any way the abandonment of the ministry or the ordination commitment by any of its clergy. Such a decision entails serious canonical consequences such as excommunication and dismissal (Roman Catholic) or suspension and deposition (Polish National Catholic). In view of possible misunderstandings, the members determined that it would not be appropriate to offer recommendations on the handling of these cases at the present time. In the course of their discussion, however, the members sought to identify ways in which these situations could be handled that would minimize the amount of scandal they cause.

usccb.org/news/2011/11-079.cfm

Hope this helps clear things up a bit.

Glenda
All data is useful and gratefully accepted.

The situation here seems very roughly analogous to some of the dialogues that are on-going with the Anglican world and the Lutheran, though, of course, differing in the question of the recognition of orders. Most interesting. I see that the date on that is 3 years ago. Wonder if anything is moving.

Also bookmarked, and thank you.

GKC
 
Good Morning…I’ve just received my earlier email back from mail-demon…I tried to contact Prime Bishop Anthony Mikovsky of the PNCC to get info from him as to the state of relations between the PNCC and the Anglican Provinces that grew out of the +Chambers Consecrations. I gues I’ll have to snail-mail him or call the Church.

Anyone have info if there is a relationship between the groups?
 
Good Morning…I’ve just received my earlier email back from mail-demon…I tried to contact Prime Bishop Anthony Mikovsky of the PNCC to get info from him as to the state of relations between the PNCC and the Anglican Provinces that grew out of the +Chambers Consecrations. I gues I’ll have to snail-mail him or call the Church.

Anyone have info if there is a relationship between the groups?
To the best of my knowledge, there is, of some sort. That’s all I would be able to say, at this time. Certainly the +Chambers line (hence the PNCC line) flows in a number of Continuing jurisdictions. A couple of priests I’ve been associated with received those lines, in their ordinations.

GKC
 
really this issue has been discussed ad nauseum -if one looks for an unbroken chain of the impositon of hands from the Apostles the Anglicans have it -the issue of validity is with the Roman Church-but not apparently with** two of its branches** the Old catholic and the PNCC
I don’t think the PNCC or the “Old Catholics” are branches of the “Roman Church”. They are not in union with the Pope or their local bishop. If you label them as “Catholics”, you might as well label Methodists or Lutherans as branches of the “Roman Church”, since Rome accepts much of what they do as valid. You might label them as “earlier old Catholics”, or else you might label the PNCC as “later Protestants”.
(sorry for the detour, now back to intelligent posters who stay on thread)
🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top