Valid Holy Orders or Not?

[Anglican_Monk]

GCK…I’ve just finished reading six pages of past Cath.Ans. I stumbled onto while looking up one of the books you suggested…interesting. I’m almost sorry I brought up the subject.

I come from one of the +Chambers consecrations lines, APCK, and like you, as far as I can tell from your past posts, have not problem with Anglican Orders being valid. It seems this subject just continues going in circles, but it’s still a very interesting subject.

 

[Anglican_Monk]

Sorry…That should be GKC.

 

[GKC]

GCK…I’ve just finished reading six pages of past Cath.Ans. I stumbled onto while looking up one of the books you suggested…interesting. I’m almost sorry I brought up the subject.

I come from one of the +Chambers consecrations lines, APCK, and like you, as far as I can tell from your past posts, have not problem with Anglican Orders being valid. It seems this subject just continues going in circles, but it’s still a very interesting subject.

I expect my name was found, here and there.

It keeps going in circles and I keep pushing the wheel, when it does. I am well versed in the matter (and subject, and intent, and form) but I limit my discussions mainly to an explication of what happened, and who did what. I have, over the years, found that there were a fair number of misconceptions about the whole thing.

If you are in APCK, then you are speaking of the line that ++Morse received from Chambers, I would suppose.

I was in APCK, at one time.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Sorry…That should be GKC.

I know him well.

GKC

 

[Anglican_Monk]

???At one time…I take it you left the Provunce.

 

[GKC]

???At one time…I take it you left the Provunce.

There was a mini mass migration. For the usual reasons that the Continuum jurisdictions do the jurisdiction dance.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I don’t think the PNCC or the “Old Catholics” are branches of the “Roman Church”. They are not in union with the Pope or their local bishop. If you label them as “Catholics”, you might as well label Methodists or Lutherans as branches of the “Roman Church”, since Rome accepts much of what they do as valid. You might label them as “earlier old Catholics”, or else you might label the PNCC as “later Protestants”.
(sorry for the detour, now back to intelligent posters who stay on thread)

No, not branches of the Roman Church. But, to the point, folk whom the RCC (gotta be careful about the OCs/Utrecht, though, these days), accept as possessing valid orders. Not sure about the other folk you mention but don’t think they are considered similarly.

GKC

 

[commenter]

The thread assessed the Vatican’s view of validity of Holy Orders of other groups. Does the whole Anglican Communion accept the validity of RC orders - deacon, priest, bishop? - and the validity of consecrations and confessions by RC priests, for RC laity? or Anglican laity?

I am assume the answer is yes, but I am unsure.
I am raising this, given the rising acrimony between a few of the more radical types in the TEC, towards the RC Church. For instance, I wonder if there is murmuring that if those RC’s won’t ordain women, or won’t marry gays, is their priesthood really valid? Maybe tomorrow.

 

[GKC]

The thread assessed the Vatican’s view of validity of Holy Orders of other groups. Does the whole Anglican Communion accept the validity of RC orders - deacon, priest, bishop? - and the validity of consecrations and confessions by RC priests, for RC laity? or Anglican laity?

I am assume the answer is yes, but I am unsure.
I am raising this, given the rising acrimony between a few of the more radical types in the TEC, towards the RC Church. For instance, I wonder if there is murmuring that if those RC’s won’t ordain women, or won’t marry gays, is their priesthood really valid? Maybe tomorrow.

Unless you find some Anglicans (and I dare say you can) that don’t accept the idea of orders at all (wait here and see if any show up), the general answer, more so than most answers to questions about Anglicans, is yes, your orders are valid and sacraments are validly confected.

Now, what you might find, in some corners, is folk who accept that, but want y’all to get with the program and do what TEC does, in part.

GKC

 

[Anglican_Monk]

Of course RC Orders are valid…As an Anglo-Catholic I, nor anyone else I know of in the Continuing Anglican. movement have ever expressed the idea that RC Priests’ Orders are not valid. I hope the Pope and other Princes of the RCC never fell compelled to ordain women to the priesthood…unthinkable!

 

[Anglican_Monk]

Here’s an idea…Why not have the Roman Church just say, "Hey guys we will re-Ordain all you Anglo-Catholics, no strings attached, and we can get on with the plan that Christ has for us. You keep your Anglican Rites, the Orthodox will keep theirs, and we’ll keep ours, but at least now we will all be valid in our work. We won’t have to grumble, gripe, and nark at each other any more.

 

[GKC]

Here’s an idea…Why not have the Roman Church just say, "Hey guys we will re-Ordain all you Anglo-Catholics, no strings attached, and we can get on with the plan that Christ has for us. You keep your Anglican Rites, the Orthodox will keep theirs, and we’ll keep ours, but at least now we will all be valid in our work. We won’t have to grumble, gripe, and nark at each other any more.

Can you see a possible fault in that, from Rome’s standpoint? Aside from the point that it couldn’t be re-ordaining, it would be ordaining absolute, or (just theoretically, possibly, in some instances, ordination sub conditione.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Of course RC Orders are valid…As an Anglo-Catholic I, nor anyone else I know of in the Continuing Anglican. movement have ever expressed the idea that RC Priests’ Orders are not valid. I hope the Pope and other Princes of the RCC never fell compelled to ordain women to the priesthood…unthinkable!

I feel that is likely to be the case.

Current rector does not do it, but my late rector included the Pope, by name, and the Ecumenical Patriarch, in the prayers for the whole state of Christ’s Church, at Mass.

GKC

 

[commenter]

Here’s an idea…Why not have the Roman Church just say, "Hey guys we will re-Ordain all you Anglo-Catholics, no strings attached, and we can get on with the plan that Christ has for us. You keep your Anglican Rites, the Orthodox will keep theirs, and we’ll keep ours, but at least now we will all be valid in our work. We won’t have to grumble, gripe, and nark at each other any more.

The problem is without a Magisterium, there’s no concrete way of identifying which of those individuals should be ordained. I find the number and proliferation of Anglo-Catholic organizations mind-boggling, and I am sure some solid and not so solid Anglo Catholics are still in the TEC and C of E. Some of them deserve to be grumbled, griped and narked at, daily, not ordained.

Within the Catholic church our internal narking skills fell into disuse from around 1960 to, say, into the 1980s, as we ordained, shall we say, a variety of men, most of them good. Since then dogma was restored in the seminary, we seem to do a better job of training and choosing priests, based on the ones I know, and we are far more selective about which communities we are ecumenical with.

Sacramental validity is a factor in Christian unity, but people blow it out of proportion. Also important is a visible, organic unity on issues like religious liberty, prolife, etc. In friendlier times it didn’t matter so much as there was no opposition to Christianity, and lots of different Christians, rites, what have you, were all floating (separately) in the right direction, a visible Authority like the Magisterium was considered unnecessary. Christians all followed doctrinal orthodoxy even if they didn’t have the Magisterium.

What about the world of 2014? Are all the floating, Magisterium-less Christians floating in the right direction? Do you think universal acceptance of everyone’s Holy Orders will create unity? Internally in my diocese, and arguably in the USA generally, Catholics only had unity where, and to the extent we were united to the Magisterium; lots of RC priests who had valid orders were divided by allegiance to the New Age, Political Radicalism, and other factors. Most of them have died, or have left, and should be prayed for.

Commenter
Using the Internet to gripe, complain, and nark, hitting the pause button on America’s Mental-Moral Mudslide

 

[glendab]

Hello Commenter.

The thread assessed the Vatican’s view of validity of Holy Orders of other groups. Does the whole Anglican Communion accept the validity of RC orders - deacon, priest, bishop? - and the validity of consecrations and confessions by RC priests, for RC laity? or Anglican laity?

I am assume the answer is yes, but I am unsure.
I am raising this, given the rising acrimony between a few of the more radical types in the TEC, towards the RC Church. For instance, I wonder if there is murmuring that if those RC’s won’t ordain women, or won’t marry gays, is their priesthood really valid? Maybe tomorrow.

Yes, the Anglican Church always accepted that our Priests were true Priests but then it imprisoned them and eventually Martyred many along with those who assisted them and hid them and helped the. Do not loose sight of the historical facts pertaining to the origins of the Anglican Church. When a Priest was found in the country, he was jailed or shipped out of the country. If he came back he’d go tot jail for the last time and then he was Martyred for bringing the Catholic faith of the people of England. Catholicism wasn’t legal until the reduction of the Penal laws against her in 1829. That’s quite a long stretch of making criminals of Catholics.

Glenda

 

[Anglican_Monk]

Sorry guys, my statement was a little tongue-in-cheek. There would be great fault in a re-ordaining…we Anglo-Catholics would be admitting our orders are invalid…the Roman Church would’t do it with out so hold on those ordained, and I wouldn’t blame them for that.

 

[GKC]

Hello Commenter.

Yes, the Anglican Church always accepted that our Priests were true Priests but then it imprisoned them and eventually Martyred many along with those who assisted them and hid them and helped the. Do not loose sight of the historical facts pertaining to the origins of the Anglican Church. When a Priest was found in the country, he was jailed or shipped out of the country. If he came back he’d go tot jail for the last time and then he was Martyred for bringing the Catholic faith of the people of England. Catholicism wasn’t legal until the reduction of the Penal laws against her in 1829. That’s quite a long stretch of making criminals of Catholics.

Glenda

Prior to 1829, Catholicism was legal, but restricted and penalized, particularly after 1570, through some of the relief measure that started in the late 1700s. After 1829, it was notably less restricted, in the civil sphere.

For the period of persecution, Hogge’s GOD’S SECRET AGENTS is good. Regnans in Excelsis, which followed on the heels of the Earls’ Rebellion, was the major impetus to the Elizabethan policies against the Jesuits and seminary priests.

Anti-Catholicism in the United Kingdom at wiki seems accurate enough.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Sorry guys, my statement was a little tongue-in-cheek. There would be great fault in a re-ordaining…we Anglo-Catholics would be admitting our orders are invalid…the Roman Church would’t do it with out so hold on those ordained, and I wouldn’t blame them for that.

Yeah, but getting it expressed is useful. Look how helpful the comments about Lutherans accepting RC orders as valid have been, to the general understanding.

GKC

 

[commenter]

Sorry guys, my statement was a little tongue-in-cheek. There would be great fault in a re-ordaining…we Anglo-Catholics would be admitting our orders are invalid…the Roman Church would’t do it with out so hold on those ordained, and I wouldn’t blame them for that.

We need a tongue-in-cheek post now and then to test the deadly serious, midnight Catholic trigger-fingers on CAF.

Now I can go back to my day job, of being intimidated by my wife, sons, salesmen, secretaries at work, etc. I am one of those guys people ask about “Is he retired yet?”, even people who work at the same place where I still linger on, now part time.

 

[FrDavid96]

Here’s an idea…Why not have the Roman Church just say, "Hey guys we will re-Ordain all you Anglo-Catholics, no strings attached, and we can get on with the plan that Christ has for us. You keep your Anglican Rites, the Orthodox will keep theirs, and we’ll keep ours, but at least now we will all be valid in our work. We won’t have to grumble, gripe, and nark at each other any more.

Vocabulary aside, that is exactly what the Catholic Church is saying.

We are saying yes, we will ordain Anglicans who wish to become Catholic, as well as accept Anglican laity into the Catholic Church. (You didn’t mention that second part, because that’s not what the thread is about. Nevertheless the invitation is there). The Church is saying “keep your Anglican rites.” That’s exactly what the Ordinariates are all about.

Pope Benedict, the pope of Christian unity, extended just that invitation.

What, then, is the problem?