Valid Marriage and Defection

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

Scenario:
My friend was baptised in the Church, but hasn’t attented in years, and no longer considers herself Catholic. She is engaged and will be married in a civil ceremony in August. She has no interest in seeking the Church’s blessing.

My question is two-fold: One, for the sake of her having a valid marriage, should I advise her to formally defect from the Church, a Church she wants no part of in the first place?

Two, how does the defection process work? I’ve heard that a letter of intent (or something similar) must be sent to Chuch authority, usually the local bishop. She says that she talked to a couple priests who told her that she’s already left the Church through her desire to do so, which manifests itself in ways like not going to Mass and actively claiming not to be Catholic.

Please cite sources where applicable.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[thistle]

Scenario:
My friend was baptised in the Church, but hasn’t attented in years, and no longer considers herself Catholic. She is engaged and will be married in a civil ceremony in August. She has no interest in seeking the Church’s blessing.

My question is two-fold: One, for the sake of her having a valid marriage, should I advise her to formally defect from the Church, a Church she wants no part of in the first place?

Two, how does the defection process work? I’ve heard that a letter of intent (or something similar) must be sent to Chuch authority, usually the local bishop. She says that she talked to a couple priests who told her that she’s already left the Church through her desire to do so, which manifests itself in ways like not going to Mass and actively claiming not to be Catholic.

Please cite sources where applicable.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

I would NEVER advocate a Catholic “defects” from the Church. No matter what she says now you should be trying to find ways to encourage her back.
Maybe a more learned poster can correct me but I would think if a Catholic recommends that another Catholic should formally leave the Church that in itself would be a grave sin.

 

[Gertabelle]

My question is two-fold: One, for the sake of her having a valid marriage, should I advise her to formally defect from the Church, a Church she wants no part of in the first place?

Two, how does the defection process work? I’ve heard that a letter of intent (or something similar) must be sent to Chuch authority, usually the local bishop. She says that she talked to a couple priests who told her that she’s already left the Church through her desire to do so, which manifests itself in ways like not going to Mass and actively claiming not to be Catholic.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

I believe that one way a Catholic officially leaves the Church is by formally joining another church. If someday your friend returns to the Church and wants to “prove” the validity of her marriage, if she can show a document of some sort that she formally joined another church, her marriage will be considered valid until proven otherwise. I have no documents to back this up, and I’m much too tired to go searching tonight.

Sam, I think I understand why you are thinking you should tell your friend to formally leave the Church, but I’m not sure that’s the right thing to do. I would have talk with a priest before advising your friend on anything.

In the meanwhile, prayer and sacrifice make a world of difference.

Gertie

 

[bpbasilphx]

Ne_OrangeKnight, mind your own business.

 

[quiet52]

Scenario:
My friend was baptised in the Church, but hasn’t attented in years, and no longer considers herself Catholic. She is engaged and will be married in a civil ceremony in August. She has no interest in seeking the Church’s blessing.

My question is two-fold: One, for the sake of her having a valid marriage, should I advise her to formally defect from the Church, a Church she wants no part of in the first place?

Two, how does the defection process work? I’ve heard that a letter of intent (or something similar) must be sent to Chuch authority, usually the local bishop. She says that she talked to a couple priests who told her that she’s already left the Church through her desire to do so, which manifests itself in ways like not going to Mass and actively claiming not to be Catholic.

Please cite sources where applicable.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

Catholics who have defected from the Church by a formal act may have married validly outside of the Catholic Church. According to my diocese’s annulment guidelines, all of the following conditions must be met by the Catholic partners in the marriage:

1. The Catholic makes an internal decision of the will to leave the Catholic Church for reasons of apostasy, heresy or schism.
2. There is an external manifestation of that decision (e.g., baptism in another religion and notification of this fact to the Catholic Church of baptism/reception).
3. Notation of this fact is made by the pastor in the baptismal register.

 

[johnvienney]

Forum,
My name is Peter and I’m on the leadership team for my youth group at Church in Africa and may I just say all of you are inspiring!!! I loved reading everything!

I can’t wait to talk to any/all of you and would love promote intercontinental interaction between Youths of the catholic Church. Sharing and promoting various cultures of the true catholic church. Promoting visitations between youths of the catholic faith in order to surface the oneness of the true catholic faith throughout the universe.

We all need to do this. Our youths are going crazy, they can be helped when they are engaged with a lot of beautiful church activities.

Peter.

 

[kage_ar]

Seems that seeing the confusion over what is and what is not formal defection, the Pontifical Commission for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts did issue a document that explains exactly what it is. (Gotta love a Church that has real concrete instuctions on important matters.)

clsa.org/content/files/USCCB_memo_2006_0405.pdf

Jimmy Akin gives some in-depth explination here:

jimmyakin.org/2006/04/formal_defectio.html

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I would NEVER advocate a Catholic “defects” from the Church. No matter what she says now you should be trying to find ways to encourage her back.
Maybe a more learned poster can correct me but I would think if a Catholic recommends that another Catholic should formally leave the Church that in itself would be a grave sin.

That would be correct.

 

[Spirithound]

Scenario:
My friend was baptised in the Church, but hasn’t attented in years, and no longer considers herself Catholic. She is engaged and will be married in a civil ceremony in August. She has no interest in seeking the Church’s blessing.

My question is two-fold: One, for the sake of her having a valid marriage, should I advise her to formally defect from the Church, a Church she wants no part of in the first place?

Hi Sam, I would strongly advise you not to suggest she formally defects. She will have an invalid marriage, but frankly that’s the least of her problems right now. Instead, please pray for her conversion.

 

[puzzleannie]

I don’t think you or any of us can give her reliable direction in this matter, that has to come from the priest, and if she has no interest in the Catholic faith, a valid marriage, or the games she is playing with her immortal soul, she will have no interest in talking to a priest. The type of advice you are wanting to give her is making assumptions on what may or may not happen with her in the future, and that makes a shaky ground for giving advice. Simply wish her happiness and let her know you will be praying for her.

 

[jkarp]

I don’t think you or any of us can give her reliable direction in this matter, that has to come from the priest, and if she has no interest in the Catholic faith, a valid marriage, or the games she is playing with her immortal soul, she will have no interest in talking to a priest. The type of advice you are wanting to give her is making assumptions on what may or may not happen with her in the future, and that makes a shaky ground for giving advice. Simply wish her happiness and let her know you will be praying for her.

I appreciate with what you are saying (and mostly agree with it) and believe that the subject of this discussion has more serious issues that the validity of marriage after leaving the Church.

I don’t think you or any of us can give her reliable direction in this matter, that has to come from the priest,

However, I also believe that thinking such as this is also a problem. We are all called to evangelize and spread Christ’s Good News; this is not a task designated only for priests. Yes, you are definitely correct that priests are well-suited for this task through their extensive education, formation, and training, but we are all called to prepare ourselves to share and defend the faith through our words and actions. I take every opportunity to discuss and share the (fullness) of the Truth with my non-Catholic brethren in Christ, especially those who have fallen away from the Catholic Church.

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

Thanks for some good replies so far, especially the relevant links. Be assured that I am praying for them, and have been. And thanks to you all for any prayers you may be sending towards the situation.

My real issue here, besides the obvious concern for their souls, is attending the wedding. Telling my friends that I refuse to go to their wedding because their marriage is invalid, well, that creates some hurt feelings, as one mighe imagine. Both the bride and groom are good friends of mine and I don’t want to lose them.

So, follow-up question based on what I’ve read. Since she talked to multiple priests about her desire to defect (in her mind, her pre-existing defection), would that constitute defection? The internal desire and external act seem to be their, and her local pastor has received such notice and told her that she’s already defected. So, does that count?

Let me add, I don’t want to seem like I’m looking for a loophole or anything, but I’d prefer not to alienate a couple of my best friends, if possible. If it comes to it, God obviously comes before friends, but I’d prefer to have both.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[puzzleannie]

I However, I also believe that thinking such as this is also a problem. We are all called to evangelize and spread Christ’s Good News; this is not a task designated only for priests. h.

OP is not talking about evangelizing, he is talking about advising someone on a specifically pastoral issue which is matter for confession, so beyond the competence of a lay friend, and also giving advice on a canon law matter, also beyond the competence of a lay friend.

 

[kage_ar]

So, follow-up question based on what I’ve read. Since she talked to multiple priests about her desire to defect (in her mind, her pre-existing defection), would that constitute defection? The internal desire and external act seem to be their, and her local pastor has received such notice and told her that she’s already defected. So, does that count?

clsa.org/content/files/USCCB_memo_2006_0405.pdf

 

[Sepharad]

This is related to a question I had myself, with someone I’ve been counseling.

(I volunteer with a Jewish agency that assists Jews who once converted to other faiths, if they choose to return to Judaism.)

We got a call a few weeks ago from a woman who was born Jewish, once became Catholic, and wanted to return to Judaism. She also wanted to do this thing you speak of, which is send the church a letter formally renouncing her Catholic membership.

However, she has not done so because she is concerned that a child she had that died while she was Catholic, and was buried in an Archdiocesan cemetery, will not be allowed to be buried there anymore (she said the grave owner must be a Catholic.)

Does anyone know if her sending such a letter would cause the church to compel her to disinter the body of her child? I personally cannot imagine them doing something like that, not with their pro-life image, but technically the grave owner would no longer be Catholic, right?

Another question: I was always led to believe that once a person is baptized Catholic, the church ALWAYS regards them as Catholic; that it CANNOT be renounced.

Has that changed now, with the ruling linked to?

 

[kage_ar]

Another question: I was always led to believe that once a person is baptized Catholic, the church ALWAYS regards them as Catholic; that it CANNOT be renounced.

Has that changed now, with the ruling linked to?

Jimmy Akin’s blog entry will provide you with the Canon Law references

jimmyakin.org/2006/04/formal_defectio.html

A phone call to her Diocese should be able to answer your question about the grave. I seriously doubt that the Diocese would require the child to be moved.

 

[Spirithound]

Does anyone know if her sending such a letter would cause the church to compel her to disinter the body of her child? I personally cannot imagine them doing something like that, not with their pro-life image, but technically the grave owner would no longer be Catholic, right?

Another question: I was always led to believe that once a person is baptized Catholic, the church ALWAYS regards them as Catholic; that it CANNOT be renounced.

Has that changed now, with the ruling linked to?

I highly doubt that her child would be disinterred. For a more definitive answer though, you will need to contact the diocese.
Baptism confers an indelible mark on the soul which cannot be removed, destroyed, etc. So, ontologically, a person baptized Catholic, or confirmed Catholic will always actually be Catholic, but in this thread we’re only talking about legalities. Quite honestly, I don’t know why the Church allows this, because I believe, as I indicated before, a person who just up and leaves the Church has bigger problems to deal with than an invalid marriage.

 

[Sepharad]

I highly doubt that her child would be disinterred. For a more definitive answer though, you will need to contact the diocese.
Baptism confers an indelible mark on the soul which cannot be removed, destroyed, etc. So, ontologically, a person baptized Catholic, or confirmed Catholic will always actually be Catholic, but in this thread we’re only talking about legalities. Quite honestly, I don’t know why the Church allows this, because I believe, as I indicated before, a person who just up and leaves the Church has bigger problems to deal with than an invalid marriage.

Thanks to both for your replies, I will pass the info along.

I am puzzled by this new church ruling as well. I’d think that anyone leaving the church wouldn’t care about their status! I don’t even see why an ex-Catholic would want to send a letter to their bishop to remove them from the rolls, unless they just wanted to make a point (I did ask the Jewish woman I’m dealing with about her reason…she said she does not want any record of her name as being a Catholic, because she is rather ashamed of her past action now.)

But why else would someone want to send a letter?

 

[Ne_OrangeKnight]

Ne_OrangeKnight;3815256:

So, follow-up question based on what I’ve read. Since she talked to multiple priests about her desire to defect (in her mind, her pre-existing defection), would that constitute defection? The internal desire and external act seem to be their, and her local pastor has received such notice and told her that she’s already defected. So, does that count?

clsa.org/content/files/USCCB_memo_2006_0405.pdf

I’m sorry, but I’m needing more clarification. As I said, the internal desire and he external manifestation are there. And her local priest qualifies as a “competent ecclesiastical authority,” correct? Does her oral declaration of defection and reception by said priest qualify, or does she actually have to write out a full letter?

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

 

[kage_ar]

I’m sorry, but I’m needing more clarification. As I said, the internal desire and he external manifestation are there. And her local priest qualifies as a “competent ecclesiastical authority,” correct? Does her oral declaration of defection and reception by said priest qualify, or does she actually have to write out a full letter?

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight

Ecclesiastical Authority means the Bishop.

For clarification, I would suggest you call your Diocese and ask to speak with the Canon Lawyer.

Remember, Defection from the Church is a very serious thing. I would advise you to step out of this matter. Your friend is an adult, she has access to the internet and can google the information she needs, she can also make the clarification calls.