valid marriages

[forest1970]

I am having a hard time accepting that only if you are married in the RCA (when at least one of you is catholic), is it a valid marriage. I get the RCA wants to make sure it’s valid becfore you get married, but just becuase you don’t check with the church before hand doesn’t make it not valid in itself. I am Lutheral and my husband is catholic. We married civily and now that we have problems he wants to use it as a way out saying we aren’t in a real marriage anyway. I said that I made every effort to become Catholic but couldn’t because he didn’t see any need to follow some rules he didn’t agree with the RCA on (having to be married in the church I mean). Now he wants to use it against me when he didn’t think it was a rule worth following before and is using it as a scapegoat. It makes me mad becuase we have two kids and I don’t think it should be that easy for him to walk out. I treat him as good as I can. His complaint about me is that I am not a rich stick thin model. He will complain about how I park or other stupid things that shouldn’t even be an issue when I do whatever he asks and he has time to do what he wants when he wants, he doesn’t work as much as me (hardly at all) and I do the house stuff and everything else. If anybody has the right to complain, it’s me. But becuase of that technicality he uses it against me that we aren’t “valid”. I have a lot of complaints aginst him as well but I still try to keep everything together and not make waves with him.

I guess i am getting a little off track…my main point is, I think it’s an out to a marriage (saying it’s not a valid marriage) and that’s not fair to the spouse that may want to make it work. But at the same time, I guess becuase I feel poorly treated, I guess I have lost my faith in marriage because I just don’t see people committing to it anymore no matter what and I think it’s an easy way out - this annullment stuff. I don’t know what should happen but marriage is way off the mark nowadays.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I am having a hard time accepting that only if you are married in the RCA (when at least one of you is catholic), is it a valid marriage. I get the RCA wants to make sure it’s valid becfore you get married, but just becuase you don’t check with the church before hand doesn’t make it not valid in itself. I am Lutheral and my husband is catholic. We married civily and now that we have problems he wants to use it as a way out saying we aren’t in a real marriage anyway. I said that I made every effort to become Catholic but couldn’t because he didn’t see any need to follow some rules he didn’t agree with the RCA on (having to be married in the church I mean). Now he wants to use it against me when he didn’t think it was a rule worth following before and is using it as a scapegoat. It makes me mad becuase we have two kids and I don’t think it should be that easy for him to walk out. I treat him as good as I can. His complaint about me is that I am not a rich stick thin model. He will complain about how I park or other stupid things that shouldn’t even be an issue when I do whatever he asks and he has time to do what he wants when he wants, he doesn’t work as much as me (hardly at all) and I do the house stuff and everything else. If anybody has the right to complain, it’s me. But becuase of that technicality he uses it against me that we aren’t “valid”. I have a lot of complaints aginst him as well but I still try to keep everything together and not make waves with him.

I guess i am getting a little off track…my main point is, I think it’s an out to a marriage (saying it’s not a valid marriage) and that’s not fair to the spouse that may want to make it work. But at the same time, I guess becuase I feel poorly treated, I guess I have lost my faith in marriage because I just don’t see people committing to it anymore no matter what and I think it’s an easy way out - this annullment stuff. I don’t know what should happen but marriage is way off the mark nowadays.

I feel your pain. Your stroy should be a warning if you do not have respect enough for the faith you proclaim to follow what it says, who can you be expected to be true to anything else. the Catholic Church says that as a Catholic you have to be married in the Chruch by a Priest. or obtain premission from your bishop to do otherwise. If not it is not a valid sacramental marriage. these are simple rule to follow and can you really expect someone that is not willing to follow them to uphold any thing else?

 

[stephe1987]

That’s why the “no-fault divorce” thing was such a bad idea. As soon as that started, people would find whatever excuse to get out of marriage. Civil divorce is very easy, and annulments aren’t hard to get, especially if you leave the door open when you get married in case it doesn’t work out (not getting married in the Church => I can use that as an excuse to leave if I get bored/tired in my marriage).

I think you two should try to get counselling. Studies show that when first marriages end in divorce (as opposed to death), the persons involved carry the same problems into their next marriage. They do not magically go away. This is why second and subsequent marriages have even higher divorce rates than first marriages. Also, couples that have trouble in their marriages but do NOT divorce often state themselves to be “happily married” five years later. It is a rough patch and needs to be worked through. Divorce/annulment does not solve anything.

And for those of you who are engaged or dating or thinking about marriage: learn from this example! Go to the classes, follow the rules. If you believe divorce is not an option, you will work harder to fix your marriage.

 

[agent_grey]

I could be wrong but I always thought that the Catholic Tradition held that non Catholic marriages where still binding before the eyes of God.

My understanding is that Baptism and Marriage are the only sacraments that are available to non Catholics. I always had difficulty with this because there would then not be such thing as an invalid marriage in Catholicism. The only case for an invalid marriage would be if the couple discovered they where too closely related.

If it is true that the church has held that non Catholic marriages where invalid I would love to know. I am a single 35 year old and if it was true that noncatholic marriages where invalid my dating pool would grow 10 fold as I would be able to date noncatholics who where divorced.

 

[Dorothy]

I could be wrong but I always thought that the Catholic Tradition held that non Catholic marriages where still binding before the eyes of God.

My understanding is that Baptism and Marriage are the only sacraments that are available to non Catholics. I always had difficulty with this because there would then not be such thing as an invalid marriage in Catholicism. The only case for an invalid marriage would be if the couple discovered they where too closely related.

If it is true that the church has held that non Catholic marriages where invalid I would love to know. I am a single 35 year old and if it was true that noncatholic marriages where invalid my dating pool would grow 10 fold as I would be able to date noncatholics who where divorced.

If two baptized Lutherans marry in the Lutheran Church it is a valid marriage. If two baptized Presbyterians marry in the Presbyterian Church it is a valid marriage.

A Catholic is bound to the Catholic way of marriage - in a Catholic Church with the priest as witness, unless a dispensation is sought and granted.

 

[1ke]

I am having a hard time accepting that only if you are married in the RCA (when at least one of you is catholic), is it a valid marriage. I get the RCA wants to make sure it’s valid becfore you get married, but just becuase you don’t check with the church before hand doesn’t make it not valid in itself. I am Lutheral and my husband is catholic.

I’m not sure what the RCA is?

Anyway… A Catholic must marry according to Catholic Church law OR receive permission from his bishop (called a dispensation) to marry somewhere else. He certainly could have gotten permission to marry you in your own church.

I’m sorry you don’t accept that the Catholic Church has authority over Catholics. Do you not think the Lutheran church has authority over YOU?

We married civily and now that we have problems he wants to use it as a way out saying we aren’t in a real marriage anyway. I said that I made every effort to become Catholic but couldn’t because he didn’t see any need to follow some rules he didn’t agree with the RCA on (having to be married in the church I mean).

You are under no obligation to become a Catholic. He could be validly married without you becoming a Catholic.

Now he wants to use it against me when he didn’t think it was a rule worth following before and is using it as a scapegoat. It makes me mad becuase we have two kids and I don’t think it should be that easy for him to walk out. I treat him as good as I can. His complaint about me is that I am not a rich stick thin model. He will complain about how I park or other stupid things that shouldn’t even be an issue when I do whatever he asks and he has time to do what he wants when he wants, he doesn’t work as much as me (hardly at all) and I do the house stuff and everything else. If anybody has the right to complain, it’s me. But becuase of that technicality he uses it against me that we aren’t “valid”. I have a lot of complaints aginst him as well but I still try to keep everything together and not make waves with him.

Sounds to me like your husband has some emotional or psychological issues. Frankly, this doesn’t have anything to do with him being Catholic. It has to do with him being person of poor character.

I guess i am getting a little off track…my main point is, I think it’s an out to a marriage (saying it’s not a valid marriage) and that’s not fair to the spouse that may want to make it work. But at the same time, I guess becuase I feel poorly treated, I guess I have lost my faith in marriage because I just don’t see people committing to it anymore no matter what and I think it’s an easy way out - this annullment stuff. I don’t know what should happen but marriage is way off the mark nowadays.

Well then, call his bluff.

Tell him you two can go to his priest next week and ask to have your marriage convalidated. This is all he has to do to correct his invalid marriage situation-- go ask for convalidation and exchange vows in the Catholic form in front of a priest.

If he won’t do that, then you have your answer-- he’s a *manipulator *and it doesn’t have anything to do with the Catholic Church or his faith. No matter what you do it won’t be good enough for him.

Personally, he sounds a few fries short of a Happy Meal. You want to stay married to an emotionally abusive husband who criticizes you for not being a stick thin model… why, exactly???

 

[beth40n2]

Here is a really good resource for what the church believes about marriages.

nccbuscc.org/laity/marriage/marriagefaqs.shtml

 

[agent_grey]

If two baptized Lutherans marry in the Lutheran Church it is a valid marriage. If two baptized Presbyterians marry in the Presbyterian Church it is a valid marriage.

A Catholic is bound to the Catholic way of marriage - in a Catholic Church with the priest as witness, unless a dispensation is sought and granted.

Baptism is Baptism. Does not matter if they are Baptised by a Lutheran, Presbyterian, or by an Atheist. And non of these holds any supremacy over a Catholic Baptism and vice versa. A satan worshiper can even give a valid baptism.

I am 99% certain that all marriages are valid regardless of religion. The marriage is simply classified as natural rather than sacremental. But this only refers to the ceremony and has nothing to do with the end result. Marriage is a natural part of human civilization; religion is not

And a Catholic is never free to participate in a non Catholic ceremony. It doesn’t matter if a claimant to the chair of Peter says otherwise.

 

[agapewolf]

Baptism is Baptism. Does not matter if they are Baptised by a Lutheran, Presbyterian, or by an Atheist. And non of these holds any supremacy over a Catholic Baptism and vice versa. A satan worshiper can even give a valid baptism.

I am 99% certain that all marriages are valid regardless of religion. The marriage is simply classified as natural rather than sacremental. But this only refers to the ceremony and has nothing to do with the end result. Marriage is a natural part of human civilization; religion is not

And a Catholic is never free to participate in a non Catholic ceremony. It doesn’t matter if a claimant to the chair of Peter says otherwise.

There is a lot of incorrect things said here.

A person baptized into the Catholic church is bound by Catholic canon law and discipline. Someone who is not baptized into the church is not bound by these laws.

 

[stormy99]

I am having a hard time accepting that only if you are married in the RCA (when at least one of you is catholic), is it a valid marriage. I get the RCA wants to make sure it’s valid becfore you get married, but just becuase you don’t check with the church before hand doesn’t make it not valid in itself. I am Lutheral and my husband is catholic. We married civily and now that we have problems he wants to use it as a way out saying we aren’t in a real marriage anyway. I said that I made every effort to become Catholic but couldn’t because he didn’t see any need to follow some rules he didn’t agree with the RCA on (having to be married in the church I mean). Now he wants to use it against me when he didn’t think it was a rule worth following before and is using it as a scapegoat. It makes me mad becuase we have two kids and I don’t think it should be that easy for him to walk out. I treat him as good as I can. His complaint about me is that I am not a rich stick thin model. He will complain about how I park or other stupid things that shouldn’t even be an issue when I do whatever he asks and he has time to do what he wants when he wants, he doesn’t work as much as me (hardly at all) and I do the house stuff and everything else. If anybody has the right to complain, it’s me. But becuase of that technicality he uses it against me that we aren’t “valid”. I have a lot of complaints aginst him as well but I still try to keep everything together and not make waves with him.

I guess i am getting a little off track…my main point is, I think it’s an out to a marriage (saying it’s not a valid marriage) and that’s not fair to the spouse that may want to make it work. But at the same time, I guess becuase I feel poorly treated, I guess I have lost my faith in marriage because I just don’t see people committing to it anymore no matter what and I think it’s an easy way out - this annullment stuff. I don’t know what should happen but marriage is way off the mark nowadays.

**He’s in for a big surprise…your marriage is considered valid…and he can’t sweep it under the rug…you have two children that are also his responsibility. I would be talking to someone who understands the Canon law and your rights…and a good divorce lawyer…quickly.

stormy**

 

[stormy99]

There is a lot of incorrect things said here.

A person baptized into the Catholic church is bound by Catholic canon law and discipline. Someone who is not baptized into the church is not bound by these laws.

**Yes we are…we can’t become Catholic or convalidate a second marriage to a Catholic without going through the entire Marriage Tribunal process…that is definitely bound by their laws…I had to do all of the above and I wasn’t Catholic at the time…their laws go beyond their own.

stormy**

 

[agapewolf]

**Yes we are…we can’t become Catholic or convalidate a second marriage to a Catholic without going through the entire Marriage Tribunal process…that is definitely bound by their laws…I had to do all of the above and I wasn’t Catholic at the time…their laws go beyond their own.

stormy**

Actually, what you say is proving my point. You were a non-catholic and you didnt’ marry in the catholic church, you were NOT bound by Catholic discipline in that marriage. which means the church is honoring your vows and marriage by presuming it was valid.

 

[CB_Catholic]

**He’s in for a big surprise…your marriage is considered valid…and he can’t sweep it under the rug…you have two children that are also his responsibility. I would be talking to someone who understands the Canon law and your rights…and a good divorce lawyer…quickly.

stormy**

No, the marriage is not valid in the Catholic Church because the husband, who is a Catholic, is bound by the Catholic church’s marriage laws. She stated they were married in a civil ceremony, outside of the Church, because her husband saw no need to follow the Church’s rules regarding marriage, even though she was willing to become Catholic and be married in the Church.

However, to take that information and use it against her as he has done is reprehensible and bullying behavior, but the lady is going to have to make her own decision as to whether she wants to live under those conditions. The fault does not lie with the Church, however, which has clearly defined rules about marriage, and is up front about them, but with the person who chose to ignore those rules. That much should be made clear.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Baptism is Baptism. Does not matter if they are Baptised by a Lutheran, Presbyterian, or by an Atheist. And non of these holds any supremacy over a Catholic Baptism and vice versa. A satan worshiper can even give a valid baptism.

I am 99% certain that all marriages are valid regardless of religion. The marriage is simply classified as natural rather than sacremental. But this only refers to the ceremony and has nothing to do with the end result. Marriage is a natural part of human civilization; religion is not

And a Catholic is never free to participate in a non Catholic ceremony. It doesn’t matter if a claimant to the chair of Peter says otherwise.

Baptism is not always Baptism. For example, the Catholic Church does not view the baptisms of the Mormon Church or the Salvation Army as valid.

 

[Phemie]

Baptism is not always Baptism. For example, the Catholic Church does not view the baptisms of the Mormon Church or the Salvation Army as valid.

I don’t think the Salvation Army has anything they call Baptism. It’s not part of their beliefs.

 

[puzzleannie]

I am having a hard time accepting that only if you are married in the RCA (when at least one of you is catholic), is it a valid marriage. I get the RCA wants to make sure it’s valid becfore you get married, but just becuase you don’t check with the church before hand doesn’t make it not valid in itself. I am Lutheral and my husband is catholic. We married civily and now that we have problems he wants to use it as a way out saying we aren’t in a real marriage anyway. I said that I made every effort to become Catholic but couldn’t because he didn’t see any need to follow some rules he didn’t agree with the RCA on (having to be married in the church I mean). Now he wants to use it against me when he didn’t think it was a rule worth following before and is using it as a scapegoat. It.

your post is very difficult to follow but I will try to answer what I think you are saying, if I have it wrong, forgive me and try to clarify.

First, the Catholic Church binds only Catholic to canon law form on marriage, not non-Catholics. Two non-Catholics who are otherwise free to marry are considered validly married, no matter who has witnessed it, unless and until proven otherwise.

If I read your situation correctly, it is your husband who is Catholic, who with your full knowledge and agreement refused to marry you under Catholic form because he disdained Church laws on marriage. It now appears he also disregards even common understanding of marriage and is seeking an excuse to end your marriage legally through civil divorce. That has nothing whatever to do with the Catholic canon law situation. No, if he is Catholic and did not obey Church law, his marriage to you is not valid. That will have no impact whatever on your civil divorce. Sounds like he is trying to confuse and manipulate you, and that a marriage counsellor, perhaps one suggested by your own clergyman, would be if immense help.

He cannot use Catholic law against you, although he is simply stating a fact that the Church probably does not view your marriage as valid. That simply means that should you eventually divorce, he can have the marriage declared invalid due to lack of form and be free to marry in the Church. Since he has such little regard for marriage as a sacrament or even as a civil contract, it seems doubful he would even care enough to follow that route.

Get the best advice you can from your own clergy for spiritual support, and from a good attorney on the legal matters at hand. We will be praying for you.