Valid sacrament

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I do not dispute this. Asking if their sacraments are valid is the wrong question. Asking if one may attempt these sacraments is the correct answer. The answer is, “No”.

I believe this too. I believe he deliberately did not close the door to the sacrament’s validity. At best, this leaves a remote possibility of validity as an act of mercy, that fornication and unconfessed sins are not compounding the laity’s who follow the SSPX disobedience to the church. I strongly opposed this obedience.
The SSPX attempts at absolution are no more valid than going to a palm reader at the boardwalk because they have no ministry in the Church.

Can. 966 §1. The valid absolution of sins requires that the minister have, in addition to the power of orders, the faculty of exercising it for the faithful to whom he imparts absolution.

Note the words in the canon: valid absolution requires that the minister have the faculty of exercising it. No ministry in the Church means that they have no faculties (none, zip, nada, nil, …) . No faculty means that their attempts at absolution are null and void.

I realize that you’re not trying to defend them.

But please understand that, unwillingly, that’s exactly what you are doing.
 
I know that some people who attend Mass in the Extraordinary form of the Roman rite in eg an FSSP Chapel also attend Mass said by an FSSPX Priest. If an FSSP Priest know this is he obliged to forbid the person from going to the FSSPX chapel?
 
I am very thankfull for this discussion. Just one last question: would it be better for a layman to be brought up as an FSSPX person, ie attending only FSSPX Masses, or as a Greek Orthodox?
 
I am very thankfull for this discussion. Just one last question: would it be better for a layman to be brought up as an FSSPX person, ie attending only FSSPX Masses, or as a Greek Orthodox?
Please clarify because there is no FSSPX (that I’m aware)

Do you mean
SSPX (Society of St Pius the Tenth) a group of dissident priests operating outside the Church
or
FSSP (Priestly Society of Saint Peter) Catholic priests whose ministry is 100% legitimate

In the other posts, I’ve been able to tell which one you mean. In these last 2, I’m not sure.
 
Please clarify because there is no FSSPX (that I’m aware)

Do you mean
SSPX (Society of St Pius the Tenth) a group of dissident priests operating outside the Church
or
FSSP (Priestly Society of Saint Peter) Catholic priests whose ministry is 100% legitimate

In the other posts, I’ve been able to tell which one you mean. In these last 2, I’m not sure.
Father, I think the formal initials of the SSPX are, in fact FSSPX. For example, have a look at the URL of their own website: fsspx.org/en/ 😉
 
Father, I think the formal initials of the SSPX are, in fact FSSPX. For example, have a look at the URL of their own website: (link removed) 😉
I was not aware of that. I thought their official site was

sspx dot org (yes, I did that intentionally)

Maybe they have 2 different groups, each one claiming to have the “true” official website and declaring that the other website is just an invalid URL. Maybe they claim that the webmaster from one site was kidnapped and replaced with a lookalike, and all changes made after a certain date are invalid. Who knows?

In any case, as far as I know, the convention is to use the initials SSPX.

This might be a matter of different usage in different countries (I know that’s not typical).
 
I was not aware of that. I thought their official site was

sspx dot org (yes, I did that intentionally)

Maybe they have 2 different groups, each one claiming to have the “true” official website and declaring that the other website is just an invalid URL. Maybe they claim that the webmaster from one site was kidnapped and replaced with a lookalike, and all changes made after a certain date are invalid. Who knows?

In any case, as far as I know, the convention is to use the initials SSPX.

This might be a matter of different usage in different countries (I know that’s not typical).
Agreed that the standard (at least in the US) is without the “F” but the formal Latin title does seem to have it (and I think in Francophone areas the “F” is retained as well). Anyway, I probably should have made reference to the wikipedia entry, and notice the URL shown in the right-hand sidebar is the same as I found earlier.
 
Agreed that the standard (at least in the US) is without the “F” but the formal Latin title does seem to have it (and I think in Francophone areas the “F” is retained as well). Anyway, I probably should have made reference to the wikipedia entry, and notice the URL shown in the right-hand sidebar is the same as I found earlier.
I don’t think it really matters except that here on CAF, the convention is to use SSPX, and given the similarities between FSSP and FSSPX, it’s very easy for a reader to wonder “did he mean FSSP or SSPX or FSSPX as typed? Was that a typo?” Granted, most of the time, we can glean the meaning from the context, but sometimes it can be difficult.
 
I don’t think it really matters except that here on CAF, the convention is to use SSPX, and given the similarities between FSSP and FSSPX, it’s very easy for a reader to wonder “did he mean FSSP or SSPX or FSSPX as typed? Was that a typo?” Granted, most of the time, we can glean the meaning from the context, but sometimes it can be difficult.
Oh, I know and I’m not arguing or disagreeing. It was just a matter of trivial information. 😉
 
I think the 1988 Bishop ordinations are what is reffered to as “operational survival”
OK. Now I get it. For others who don’t, that was when Archbishop Lefebvre ordained bishops entirely on his own authority, without papal mandate. That act triggered an automatic excommunication for him and the new bishops (which HH Benedict later lifted).

Thee question itself was
so the so called “operation survival” is a bit stupid?
I’m not sure how to respond. It was certainly not wise, or smart. I suppose from their own perspective it made a certain sense because they knew that without bishops, they would have no new priests.

Let’s get back to the original topic, though.

Most Catholics are not actually aware that priests must have faculties in order to grant absolution. For the everyday Catholic, the simple “if he’s a priest, he’s a priest” is genuinely sufficient. Most Catholics know that they cannot go to non-Catholic ministers for Confession, so they know that going to a Lutheran or Anglican or Baptist would not be a valid confession. But where they get confused is because (if the subject even comes up) they do know that SSPX priests are “real priests.” However, what we need to do is backup a bit, and go back to the original question and the actual heart of the issue.

When we are reconciled, reconciliation has 2 parts. Think of it as a single sheet of paper with 2 sides. On one side of the paper is “forgiveness” and on the other side is “absolution.” Both of these together constitute “reconciliation.”

Forgiveness means that we have been reconciled to God—that He has removed the sin.
Absolution means that we have been reconciled to the Church—returned to the ordinary life of the Church, to whatever degree we are in need, greater or lesser.

Since the Church is the Body of Christ, these two go hand-in-hand; so being “reconciled to the Church” likewise means “reconciled to God” and vice-versa. For that reason, this distinction cannot be taken too far. Again, they are 2 sides of a single sheet of paper. Reconciliation = forgiveness + absolution.

Forgiveness is found in the post-Resurrection Gospel of John “whose sins you forgive are forgiven…” spoken to the new priests of the New Testament, the 11 Apostles in the Upper Room.

Absolution is found in Matthew “Thou art Peter…I give the Keys to the Kingdom…whatever you bind on earth…” This is called “the Power of the Keys” and was given to Peter alone, and by extension, to the successors of Peter (the popes).

That means that a priest must have BOTH the power of orders (a valid ordination) AND the Power of the Keys (given to him as a minister of the Church). It’s always both-and, never either-or.

The power to forgive (in the name of Christ) is from John.
The power to absolve (in the name of the Church) is from Matthew.

This is all explained in the Summa of St. Thomas. It’s basic, Catholic theology, that is not in dispute. In Sacramental Theology, this is taken absolutely as a “given.”

Absolution itself is a juridic act of the Church (in Catholic theology, likewise this is simply a “given” that’s been repeated for over a thousand years, and need not be “proven” in a context like this). It’s a juridic act of the Church. What does that mean? It means that it is a legal act. it means that the priest acts as a legal representative of the Church in Confession. This is not the case for Baptism, or Mass, since these are not juridic acts of the Church. The priest is a judge in the confessional. He is both a judge of the soul, and he is a judge who legally represents the Church.

Because of space limitations, I’m going to continue with the explanation of “juridic act of the Church” in the next post…that will take some time.
 
We cannot simply ignore or dismiss the truth that absolution is a juridic act of the Church. It is the very definition of the word.

Now, think about it this way, in order for anyone (in a religious or secular setting) to perform a valid, juridic act, a legal act, such a one must have the legal authority to do this. I know that might sound painfully obvious, but when talking about Confession, it often gets overlooked.

A judge can issue a search warrant, that’s a legal/juridic act. But if the person acting is not a judge, then the attempt has no force, no legality. It is meaningless. Even if he is a judge, if he’s acting outside of his own jurisdiction (note the root of that word “juris”) the act still has no legal force. For example, a judge in the United States can issue a search warrant. That’s a legal act. But if that same judge goes to Sweden (since that’s where the OP is located) and attempts to issue a search warrant, that act has no force of law. It is not a juridic act. It’s not licit, it’s not valid. It’s meaningless. That judge does not, in any way, represent the nation or the laws of Sweden, and he has absolutely no authority.

In Catholic usage, as a way of summarizing the idea that a priest has the power and authority to act in the name of the Church to perform the juridic act of absolving a sinner and reconciling the sinner to God and the Church, we simply use the word “faculties.”

In order for a priest to absolve a sinner, the priest must have both the power of Orders (valid ordination) and the faculties to absolve.

There are several different ways that a priest (sacerdos, meaning bishop or presbyter) can have the faculties to absolve.

They can be given “by the law itself” because of some office or function in the Church Bishops, Cardinals, Ordinaries, pastors (and a few more) all have faculties because there is some clause in canon law that specifically gives these faculties. We might also say that they have faculties by virtue of their office, or by virtue of their jurisdiction.

Other priests have faculties because they have been given to them by someone with the legitimate authority to grant them. Priests who are not pastors are given faculties by their bishops, or (for religious) by their superiors. A retired priest must have faculties from his own bishop (indeed, most do).

Other times, the Church grants faculties for a specific situation. In danger of death, the Church grants faculties to “any priest” to absolve any sinner. If that priest is laicized, he has no faculties, however, the Church grants him faculties for that particular moment because of the situation. Remember, the Church gives those faculties. It is not true (although we often hear it said) that he “doesn’t need faculties”—instead, he does need them, but they are granted on a temporary basis.

The point here is to emphasize that in order to perform the “juridic act of the Church” a priest must have the legal authority to do so. No one who lacks legal authority to perform a legal act can ever do so with any legitimacy.

In order for an (attempt at) absolution to be valid, a priest needs both ordination AND the faculties to absolve.

It’s very simple: no faculties to absolve sinners means that there is no absolution, no juridic act of the Church.

Can. 966 §1. The valid absolution of sins requires that the minister have, in addition to the power of orders, the faculty of exercising it for the faithful to whom he imparts absolution.

§2. A priest can be given this faculty either by the law itself or by a grant made by the competent authority according to the norm of ⇒ can. 969.

The position of the Church is absolutely clear. Faculties are required for a valid absolution. There is no other way of looking at this.

There is no such thing as an absolution that is “valid but illicit” even though we often hear that phrased used when speaking about the SSPX.

Licit means legal. Illicit means illegal. Juridic act means legal act.
There is simply no such thing as a “juridic act that is illicit” because that’s the same as saying “a legal act that is illegal.”

Just looking at the words themselves, it makes no sense.

If an attempt at absolution is illicit, then it is, by its very nature, null and void. Nothing can be both legal and illegal, juridic and illicit, at the same time.

Now, just to avoid any misunderstandings, sometimes a valid confession can be an illicit method of celebrating the sacrament. A priest who hears confessions in front of a group of people (who can hear what’s happening) would be an example of an illicit celebration of the sacrament, but the absolution itself is still be a valid juridic act.

continued…
 
Now, let’s get back to the original question: can SSPX priests absolve?

We know that a priest must have both ordination and faculties to absolve (can. 966).

We know that SSPX priests are validly ordained, so we can check that box and move on.

What faculties do SSPX priests have to absolve sinners?

There are many different ways we can look at this, but let’s just get right to the point.

In 2009, (then) Pope Benedict issued an open letter to all the bishops of the Catholic Church. In that letter, he wrote this:

The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church. There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved. In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.

Let’s look at those words. The Holy Father says that they exercise no ministry in the Church. To make it absolutely clear, he says it not just once, but twice. He even says as much “in order to make this clear once again…” they exercise no ministry in the Church.

Now, “no ministry in the Church” means exactly that. It does not mean “some” or “occasional” or “maybe” or “perhaps” or anything else. His Holiness is absolutely clear and unambiguous. No ministry means no ministry. Period.

No ministry in the Church means that the SSPX priests cannot legitimately claim to have any ministry in the Church. They have no recourse to anything that might justify them exercising ministry in the Church.

So, once again, we come to the question: “what faculties to absolve do SSPX priests have?” The answer is, loud and clear “NONE!”

There is simply no other way to look at this. No ministry means no ministry. No ministry means no faculties. No faculties means no valid absolution.
 
We cannot simply ignore or dismiss the truth that absolution is a juridic act of the Church. …
Hello,

How would you define a “juridic act”? I ask because the typical definition I have seen includes the requirement that a juridic act has juridic effect(s). Does absolution always have juridic effect(s)?

Dan
 
Hello,

How would you define a “juridic act”? I ask because the typical definition I have seen includes the requirement that a juridic act has juridic effect(s). Does absolution always have juridic effect(s)?

Dan
I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.

Would I agree that a (valid and licit) juridic act does indeed effect that which it says it effects? Certainly yes.

I would also say that an invalid attempt at a juridic act does not effect what it claims.

I have no authority (no jurisdiction, if you will) to create a Cardinal of the Church. If I say that I do, my claim is simply null and void.
 
I have no authority (no jurisdiction, if you will) to create a Cardinal of the Church. If I say that I do, my claim is simply null and void.
Ok help me out here again.

The SSPX have priests. The priests were ordained invalidly by the Bishops in the SSPX. Only Bishops can ordain. The ordinations are valid.

But only bishops can forgive or give the permission to forgive sins. The confessions are not valid.

How is it that we have two things that a Bishop can do yet, only one is a sacrament?
 
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