valid vs licit

[Sir_Knight]

I hear these terms but am not sure I fully understand their meaning.

What is the difference if something is illicit VS it being invalid?

 

[PhilotheaZ]

If a sacrament is celebrated invalidly, some essential element of the sacrament was not present, so no sacrament actually occurred. For example, the person is not really baptized or ordained, the couple is not really married, or the Eucharist was not really confected, or the penitent’s sins were not forgiven.

If a sacrament is celebrated illicitly (but validly), some things were not done according to Church law, but the essentials were present so that the sacrament did take place.

 

[nerddad]

a good question that i have pondered also…
however, i’m not sure i understand yet,

If a sacrament is celebrated invalidly, some essential element of the sacrament was not present…

what is an example of the sacrament celebrated invalidly? the examples given seem to be examples of the outcome…

If a sacrament is celebrated illicitly (but validly), some things were not done according to Church law,

so is the outcome “valid”? it would seem to me that if “some” church rules were not adhered to, it would not be “valid”…what is an example of a sacrament being performed not according to church rule, but still “valid”?

 

[bpbasilphx]

what is an example of the sacrament celebrated invalidly?

**Baptizing with iced tea or fruit punch instead of water.

Presuming to celebrate the Eucharist with corn tortillas and tequila.

Administering confirmation with Wesson oil.**

what is an example of a sacrament being performed not according to church rule, but still “valid”?

**Omitting the Gospel–or Lavabo–at mass, but having proper matter (bread and wine) and otherwise saying the Eucharistic prayer properly.

Do these examples help?**

 

[tee_eff_em]

what is an example of the sacrament celebrated invalidly?

• “Baptism” not using the trinitarian formula.
• Attempting to confect the Eucharist from potato chips and apple cider.
• Attempting ordination of a non-baptized male.

what is an example of a sacrament being performed not according to church rule, but still “valid”?

• Confecting the Eucharist, in the Latin Rite, using leavened bread.
• Consecrating a bishop without the approval of the Holy See.

[re-ordered quote]

so is the outcome “valid”? it would seem to me that if “some” church rules were not adhered to, it would not be “valid”…

Not just “some” “church” rule – But some essential element. The sacrament of Baptism cannot occur except by water and the trinitarian formula. The sacrament of the Eucharist cannot be confected except of wheat bread and grape wine.

tee

 

[JimG]

Valid means: the sacrament works. It does what it is supposed to do–forgive sins, consecrate the Eucharist, join a man and woman in marriage. The sacrament has a real effect.

Invalid, or not valid, means that sacrament did not work because it was missing some essential element. Sins were not forgiven, people were not married, the Eucharist was not confected.

Illicit means the sacrament worked but it did not follow proper norms. There was some abuse in the way the sacrament was accomplished, but no essential element was missing.

i.e.: A priest, in saying Mass, omits the creed, or the preface, or the Lord’s prayer. That’s illicit. But if he omits the words of consecration, the Mass is not valid. It doesn’t work.

 

[mercygate]

My favorite example:

I work for Jack Daniels and get access to the recipe for Tennessee Sippin’ Whiskey.

I go home and mix up a batch in my basement.

Is it Tennessee Sippin’ Whiskey? (valid) Yup.

Is it Jack Daniels? (licit), Nope.

 

[SMHW]

Another real life example of illicit versus valid…

Suppose the law says that if I am a pedestrian I must cross the street at an intersection and only when the light for me is green.

If I decide to cross the street other than at an intersection or at an intersection when I have red light. If I am lucky enough to avoid any traffic I will “validly” get to the other side of the street but I will not have done so “licitly”.

“licit” is more or less the same thing as “illegal”.

It does get complicated with sacraments because sometimes a sacrament can only be validly conferred if the minister of the sacrament had the expressed permission of the Church and other times the sacrament will still be validly be conferred even if done so illicitly.

 

[tee_eff_em]

“licit” is more or less the same thing as “illegal”.

I think you mean:

• “licit” is more or less the same thing as “legal”.
• “illicit” is more or less the same thing as “illegal”.

tee

 

[Cristiano]

Licit and valid → Good!
Illicit and valid → probably someone just got in a state of sin!

 

[SMHW]

I think you mean:

• “licit” is more or less the same thing as “legal”.
• “illicit” is more or less the same thing as “illegal”.
  

tee

Yikes! I thought I went back and edited that! I guess not.