Validity of confessions in Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches

[Gorgias]

That wasn’t what I was asking, but this statement does prompt me to get clarification for something else that we talked about. I don’t think I got a clear answer on this, so let me repeat my question. Suppose that my attitude towards Jesus in my early twenties (lack of love) continued on for the rest of my life (BTW, I could see this happening considering that I didn’t get to know any priest well enough for them to detect this in me), would I still receive absolution/forgiveness during confession?

I felt badly that, perhaps, we hadn’t answered your question, but it seems we had. You asked:

truthseekerjay:

Which of the following people are able to receive absolution and forgiveness during confession? Let’s assume they all have a fear of punishment, are somewhat sorry for their sins, and are in error due to miscommunication/lack of follow up at no fault of their own.

C) me in my early twenties, who didn’t truly worship/love Jesus, but simply viewed Him as a judge (similar to a traffic court judge that we have no feelings for)

In post #117, I answered: “Baptized Catholic; poorly catechized (or, at least, with a deficient notion of Jesus); earnestly attempting confession: absolution and forgiveness.”

And in post #118, Fr David answered: “Frankly, all of the above are able to receive absolution and forgiveness. … In brief, if a person in any of those categories is poorly catechized, yet still sincere in wanting salvation, any one of them is capable of being forgiven and absolved.Baptized Catholic; poorly catechized (or, at least, with a deficient notion of Jesus); earnestly attempting confession: absolution and forgiveness.”

So, yeah… absolution can occur.

I suspect that there are too many lines of thought going on in this thread – too many questions that you’re attempting to broach all at once. Can we say that this question of whether absolution requires something else, other than contrition, has been asked and answered, and move on to your next question here, or does this require more explanation? (You seem to be hung up on your personal notion of ‘rule following’, and I appreciate that this hang-up is causing you grief and misunderstanding…)

 

[truthseekerjay]

We’ve already gone over this, haven’t we?

We did a little. You and FrDavid responded to my question about absolution/forgiveness during my early twenties. In my recent question, I was more trying to figure out if a LACK OF GROWTH at no fault of my own during my thirties and onward would allow for the same absolution/forgiveness.

And in that, I’m asserting, is that kernel of love that pleases God.

This was your response when I stated the following:
Sad to say, but I don’t think that they cared about God. What they cared about was my safety and they would have done anything for that.

Is this REALLY the kernel of love that God desires? Even evildoers and atheists have this SAME love for self preservation and preservation of their progeny. The only difference is that my parents LUCKILY stumbled upon RC rules first to allow for this preservation of progeny and as I said, this was all business. They would have followed Buddha’s rules too had they encountered them first. My dad has even said that if push came to shove, he would break rules (including the rules of the RC Church) to protect my family. I think the ONLY real reason he followed the rules of RC is because they were SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE not because he particularly wanted to follow them. Had the evildoers heard about RC rules first (like my parents) they probably would have had their kids baptized too.

Is there any other difference between my parents and the evildoers/atheists?

Hold on a second, though! You asked whether baptism works… but now, you’ve jumped to your experience as a young man! Your baptism either worked (or failed to work) long before you ever had your “Jesus as traffic cop” experience! You can’t look 15 years down the line and say “because of my experience as a teen, my experience in baptism wasn’t effecacious”! So: baptism either works or it doesn’t; and if it does, it works solely on the grace of God.

I suspect that there are too many lines of thought going on in this thread – too many questions that you’re attempting to broach all at once. Can we say that this question of whether absolution requires something else, other than contrition, has been asked and answered, and move on to your next question here, or does this require more explanation? (You seem to be hung up on your personal notion of ‘rule following’, and I appreciate that this hang-up is causing you grief and misunderstanding…)

I think I see where the confusion is happening. First of all, I wasn’t really trying to determine whether baptism works or not. Let me try to summarize what was going on and please correct me if I’m wrong about your statements.

I was trying to figure out the difference between a rule-following Buddhist and my early twenties self. For me, there really wasn’t a difference:
Buddhist: fears punishment, good rule follower, no love for Jesus
Me during early twenties: fears punishment, good rule follower, no love for Jesus

The ONLY difference I can really perceive was that I was LUCKY to have stumbled on the rules of RC first. Since love for Jesus isn’t really involved for either the Buddhist or myself, what stands out to me is LUCK and RULE FOLLOWING regardless of the presence of love.

You pointed out that a big difference is that I was baptized. At this point, I wasn’t really concerned about whether baptism works or not. For the sake of time, let’s just say that baptism does work and somehow differentiates me from the Buddhist. Regardless of whether baptism differentiates me or not from the Buddhist, what stands out for me is that even my baptism is just an EXTENSION of LUCK and RULE FOLLOWING and I mentioned my parents to emphasize this.

The only reason that my parents had me baptized was because they were LUCKY to encounter the RC rules first and that they were good RULE FOLLOWERS. As I mentioned in my response above and in previous posts, there was no love for Jesus from me and probably no love for Jesus for my parents either (it’s really just business and nothing personal). The constant theme is LUCK and RULE FOLLOWING/checking off requirements.

You mentioned that most practitioners of RC aren’t like this, but I feel that it’s probably more than you think. This is why I mentioned in a previous post some examples of people that I encountered who seem like they just want to check things off a list and without much love for Jesus:
I have coworkers who intend to baptize their child, but not enroll them in catechism classes. I had friends drop out of catechism classes right after they got their first communion, enroll again to get confirmed, and drop out again right after confirmation. I have friends who get married in RC churches just to please their families.

You responded by stating something about the validity of their baptism, but that’s not what I was trying to get at. Although I can’t be certain about the contents of their heart, their outward actions still hint that the practices of RC may just be items on a list for them. I mentioned this to show you reasons I would think that the modern day RC Church seems more concerned about rule following/checking things off rather than having love for Jesus.

I can appreciate the fact that God can give his gifts to whoever He pleases, but it seems like the gifts are going to people who are good at checking off requirements from a list and apparently, these people don’t need to have love for Him either.

 

[Gorgias]

We did a little. You and FrDavid responded to my question about absolution/forgiveness during my early twenties. In my recent question, I was more trying to figure out if a LACK OF GROWTH at no fault of my own during my thirties and onward would allow for the same absolution/forgiveness.

sigh.

Jay,

You keep asking the same question, although I think you may not realize that you’re doing so. The question, essentially, is this: “is there anything besides contrition that makes it possible to receive absolution?” (No, Jay, there isn’t.) “Oh, ok. So, when I was twenty, I didn’t have a real love of Jesus. Did that nullify absolution?” (No, Jay, it’s only about contrition.) “Oh. And when I was thirty, having not grown in my faith, did that nullify absolution?” (No, Jay, it’s only about contrition.) “Oh. So, my sister misunderstood the tenets of the faith. Did that nullify absolution?” (No, Jay. It’s only about contrition!!!)

I don’t know how else to say it: there’s only one thing that is required for a Catholic to receive absolution in the sacrament of reconciliation – contrition! (Of course, contrition includes the desire to avoid that sin in the future!) None of the following things nullify absolution: * lack of knowledge of the tenets of the faith * an insufficient love of Jesus * a lack of spiritual growth in one’s life * being a Baltimore Ravens fan
(OK… I’m not sure about that last one – as a diehard Steelers fan, I doubt Ravens fans go to heaven. )

You can keep asking the question, but the answer stays the same: contrition (even if it’s the kind of contrition that only says “I don’t want to go to hell!!!”) suffices.

For the moment, I’m going to stop here. Let’s put this particular issue to rest. Do you have any other questions on what makes absolution possible? Once we’re past this one, we’ll move on to your next concern. Fair enough?

 

[truthseekerjay]

You keep asking the same question, although I think you may not realize that you’re doing so. The question, essentially, is this: “is there anything besides contrition that makes it possible to receive absolution?” (No, Jay, there isn’t.) “Oh, ok. So, when I was twenty, I didn’t have a real love of Jesus. Did that nullify absolution?” (No, Jay, it’s only about contrition.) “Oh. And when I was thirty, having not grown in my faith, did that nullify absolution?” (No, Jay, it’s only about contrition.) “Oh. So, my sister misunderstood the tenets of the faith. Did that nullify absolution?” (No, Jay. It’s only about contrition!!!)

I’ll admit I have asked that question before, but at the bottom of the page in your post #135, it seemed like something might have changed or that a condition that we originally didn’t consider was brought up, so I just wanted to clarify that we didn’t overlook it the first time I asked the question. I think we’ve already had a couple of instances of miscommunication which led us to tangents, so I just wanted to make sure that I understood you correctly.

For the moment, I’m going to stop here. Let’s put this particular issue to rest. Do you have any other questions on what makes absolution possible? Once we’re past this one, we’ll move on to your next concern. Fair enough?

As of right now, no. However, we might come across a condition that we haven’t considered at this point and I might have to revisit the question. This might seem repetitive, but I’ve actually discovered new things about theology and even myself through repetition and considering different scenarios. I remember back then saying that I would NEVER do X and it would have irritated me if someone kept coming up with different situations that would change my answer. However, a situation did come up that I didn’t foresee and it revealed my true conditions for not doing X and revealed what was really in my heart.

 

[Gorgias]

However, we might come across a condition that we haven’t considered at this point and I might have to revisit the question.

OK – but, as far as Reconciliation is concerned, all that’s needed is a priest who has faculties to hear confessions, a penitent who is contrite (and wishes to amend his life), and the celebration of the sacrament. That’s it.

So, it seems that you have a couple other concerns that keep cropping up:

• the notion of the difference between Christians and non-Christians (which plays itself out in questions of ‘luck of the draw’)
• the notion of ‘rule-following’ (this seems to be a big one for you)
• the question of the efficacy of the sacraments (i.e., if one doesn’t have a burning love for Jesus in their heart, can the sacraments actually work?)

So… which one do you want to address next? I’ll start a new thread and reference it here. Let me know which one you want to talk about…

 

[truthseekerjay]

Gorgias, I think I might be having trouble articulating my questions. In my previous posts, I’ve tried to show you how neither I nor my parents had any love for Jesus, but you somehow think there is love. I understand that perfect love doesn’t have to be present, but the “kernel” of love that you mentioned doesn’t seem to be present for us either. To me, if there is no love FROM US, then it just comes down to rule following and checking things off a list similar to what you would do if a judge gave you a fine. Maybe we should first discuss the kind of love that has to be present because as of right now, it seems like the interactions with God that my parents and I had were very businesslike, with no concern for God.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias, I think I might be having trouble articulating my questions.

No, I think you’ve explained your perspective well. I just don’t agree with it.

Maybe we should first discuss the kind of love that has to be present because as of right now, it seems like the interactions with God that my parents and I had were very businesslike, with no concern for God.

Sounds good! I’ve created this thread to discuss that topic. Feel like heading over there and making your case? I haven’t put my opinion up there, yet (but rather, I simply framed up the question).