Validity of female "ordination"

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I’m in a dialogue with a woman who claims to be an “Orthodox Catholic” bishop. Best I can tell, her tiny group is a distant derivation of the Old Catholic schism. I’m discussing a number of topics with her, and eventually I want to get around to the touchy subject of the validity of female ordination (touchy because it will be very personal for her). But I want to be sure I’ve got my facts straight.

I believe I can competently explain and defend the Church’s teaching on the male-only priesthood, but there is one aspect that I want to make sure I understand properly. My presumption is that a woman is not the proper matter for Holy Orders, in a manner of speaking. Meaning, even if a woman undergoes the proper sacramental process by a valid bishop, the sacrament cannot “take” in her. Consequently, none of her attempts at conferring any of the sacraments that require a validly ordained priest would have any effect, so that, for instance, she cannot actually confect the Eucharist. Another way of putting it would be that her ordination would not only be illicit, it would be invalid.

Have I got that right?
 
It may be best to let her live in her dream world where she is a valid Catholic Bishop. She won’t care about anything you say.
 
tomhuth said:
I’m in a dialogue with a woman who claims to be an “Orthodox Catholic” bishop. Best I can tell, her tiny group is a distant derivation of the Old Catholic schism. I’m discussing a number of topics with her, and eventually I want to get around to the touchy subject of the validity of female ordination (touchy because it will be very personal for her). But I want to be sure I’ve got my facts straight.

I believe I can competently explain and defend the Church’s teaching on the male-only priesthood, but there is one aspect that I want to make sure I understand properly. My presumption is that a woman is not the proper matter for Holy Orders, in a manner of speaking. Meaning, even if a woman undergoes the proper sacramental process by a valid bishop, the sacrament cannot “take” in her. Consequently, none of her attempts at conferring any of the sacraments that require a validly ordained priest would have any effect, so that, for instance, she cannot actually confect the Eucharist. Another way of putting it would be that her ordination would not only be illicit, it would be invalid.

Have I got that right?
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Yes. You have it right.

Good luck!
 
hudson said:
It may be best to let her live in her dream world where she is a valid Catholic Bishop. She won’t care about anything you say.
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Thanks, Hudson, I hear what you’re saying, but I suppose that as long as she is willing to chat with me I should try to plant some seeds.
 
tomhuth said:
Thanks, Hudson, I hear what you’re saying, but I suppose that as long as she is willing to chat with me I should try to plant some seeds.
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hmmm…“plant some seeds”

Maybe “pull up some weeds” might be a better word choice.

You’re doing the right thing regardless of how it’s phrased.
 
No, the person being ordained is the subject of Holy Orders, not the matter. The matter is something different - various sources claim it is either the instruments of the office, such as the chalice, or the laying on of hands.

But you are right in principle. The valid subject of Holy Orders is a man, and attempting this on a woman results in an invalid, simulation of a sacrament.
 
Invalid.

By the way I am an invalid mother…even if my son slips up can instead of saying “da da” he says mama.

I cannot be a mother. My wife if she was not my wife …still could not be an ordained Catholic Priest (via the Sacrament of Holy Orders…no matter who laid hands on her head).
 
FrDavid96 said:
Yes. You have it right.

Good luck!
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Thanks Fr David. This seems to be a very sincere lady, but of course she is sincerely wrong about many things. I’ll just keep dialoguing as long as she allows me to and trust the Holy Spirit to work on her conscience.
 
Bookcat said:
Invalid.

By the way I am an invalid mother…even if my son slips up can instead of saying “da da” he says mama.

I cannot be a mother. My wife if she was not my wife …still could not be an ordained Catholic Priest (via the Sacrament of Holy Orders…no matter who laid hands on her head).
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It’s humanly impossible. Only the Good Lord could ordain her a priest and only the Good Lord could change the laws of nature and allow you to get pregnant. To quote Simon and Garfunkel : “Whoah God only knows/ God makes his plan. /The information’s unavailable to the mortal man.”
 
“I’m in a dialogue with a woman who claims to be an “Orthodox Catholic” bishop.”

What do you mean? Where,when are you in dialogue? Is she a friend,an acquaintance, meet her at a party, a bar,a friend of a friend…I guess I find it hard to believe.
 
Bookcat said:
Invalid.

By the way I am an invalid mother…even if my son slips up can instead of saying “da da” he says mama.

I cannot be a mother. My wife if she was not my wife …still could not be an ordained Catholic Priest (via the Sacrament of Holy Orders…no matter who laid hands on her head).
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I don’t really understand that analogy. A man can’t have a baby, not because another human has told him he can’t, but because he’s not physiologically able. Both a man and a woman are physiologically capable of entering a priesthood. The only difference is, the woman is told she can’t. There is no other impediment but her gender, defined by human limits.

I really think that if you want properly catechise someone regarding this rule of the Church, that the analogies should be comparable and make sense. But it’s up to you. If it works, and you get people to understand by your analogy, that’s great. But I don’t see how it can work. In fact, I never questioned this teaching until I came to this forum and heard all the ‘reasons’ why women “can’t” be ordained. I don’t buy it. It’s not a problem for me because I’m not in any way interested in entering religious life. But it certainly doesn’t make or break my day that women are pressuring the Vatican to ordain women. I’ll put it this way: when women get ordained, I certainly won’t be among those unhappy, that’s for sure. I would welcome the change.
 
Anna_Claire said:
“I’m in a dialogue with a woman who claims to be an “Orthodox Catholic” bishop.”

What do you mean? Where,when are you in dialogue? Is she a friend,an acquaintance, meet her at a party, a bar,a friend of a friend…I guess I find it hard to believe.
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Well, it’s kind of a long story, but the short version is I encountered a colleague of hers at a funeral and was intrigued by his peculiar story of being both Catholic and Orthodox but not under the authority of the Pope. In tracking down his bona fides on the internet, I found her website, where she claims to be the presiding bishop of their “church” for the entire country. I wrote her an email asking about him, and since then we’ve had seven or eight exchanges. I’m sure she thinks she’s evangelizing me away from the “evil” Catholic Church.
 
Rence said:
I don’t really understand that analogy. A man can’t have a baby, not because another human has told him he can’t, but because he’s not physiologically able. Both a man and a woman are physiologically capable of entering a priesthood. The only difference is, the woman is told she can’t. There is no other impediment but her gender, defined by human limits.

I really think that if you want properly catechise someone regarding this rule of the Church, that the analogies should be comparable and make sense. But it’s up to you. If it works, and you get people to understand by your analogy, that’s great. But I don’t see how it can work.
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The analogy is fine. God is the author of nature and the Sacraments. In this case gender is involved in both. The analogy is perfect.

The impediment here is her gender. Same with me. I cannot be a mother. She cannot be a Priest. Such is the way God has determined.

Impossibility of a physical nature for the one. Impossibility of a spiritual nature for the other.

It is not merely a “rule” of the Church. They simply cannot be ordained. It is not a slight against women…just as it is not a slight against me that I can not be my little sons “momma”.
 
to be fair though she has no right to minister in the same way protestant heads have no right. Not one of them were ordained by Christ’s Priesthood He established. They are simply self promoted (I don’t like to use the term ordained for such arrogance and mockery). Should the Church not speak as strongly against self promoting as it should the validity of the female priesthood?
 
BigFellaMick said:
to be fair though she has no right to minister in the same way protestant heads have no right. Not one of them were ordained by Christ’s Priesthood He established. They are simply self promoted (I don’t like to use the term ordained for such arrogance and mockery). Should the Church not speak as strongly against self promoting as it should the validity of the female priesthood?
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The Church is attending to matters within the Catholic Church. Our brothers and sisters in the various Protestant communities are respected as brothers in Christ (though we are not in full communion). As are those who lead them.

If I start claiming to be Ordained as a Catholic Priest.…or my wife does…then the Church is going to take the needed steps.
 
Honestly I don’t see the point in discussing the matter and form of Sacrament with someone who has self-excommunicated and cannot receive Sacraments anyway.

Please ask her when Christ ordained women. If Christ did not do it. It cannot be done. Roma locuta est, causa finita est.
 
Rence said:
Both a man and a woman are physiologically capable of entering a priesthood. The only difference is, the woman is told she can’t. There is no other impediment but her gender, defined by human limits.

…this rule of the Church, …: when women get ordained, I certainly won’t be among those unhappy, that’s for sure. I would welcome the change.
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Rence, a lot of people empathize with your sentiment. But Rence, why do you suppose Our Lord himself ordained only those hapless, spineless men who fearfully abandoned him before his Passion, when he had a number of faithful women followers who never abandoned him that he could have ordained, including his own sinless mother?
 
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