Validity of the Sacraments of the Chinese Patriotic Church

[augustinophile]

Hello there, I am Francis, 22 from New York and for my Geopolitics course on Contemporary China, I told my professor if i could write something about the Chinese Patriotic Church, or the Catholic Church that is autonomous and independent from the Holy See

The Patriotic Church has come to light very recently in lieu of their consecration of a number of bishops independent of the Holy See’s decision.

while it is obvious that the consecration of Bishops is clearly illicit and invalid, I would like to ask whether, in the mainland Chinese’ specific social/political circumstance, the other 6 sacraments done by Patriotic Bishops and Priests are still valid, and whether ex opere operato applies to the Catholic lay faithful receiving these sacraments coming from the patriotic clergy.

Thank you very much!

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Assuming they have valid form and matter their sacraments of baptism, confirmation (I think), Eucharist, anointing of the sick, and ordination (including the consecration of bishops) would all be valid but illicit.

I’m quite unsure about reconciliation and matrimony though. If they are in a canonical situation similar to that of the Society of St. Pius X these sacraments may be invalid (not simply illicit) for them due to their priests having suspended faculties and canon law regarding Catholic marriage.

Hopefully someone here has better knowledge of their canonical situation.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Validity would be questionable. Not every priest and bishop have been validly ordained. There are stories of Catholic bishops forced by the government to ordain their bishops and priests. But if priests were coerced into performing a Sacrament, one would have to ask the validity of their intention to ordain. The would put the ordinations into question, and probably invalid. The Vatican wouldn’t make a public statement on that because it may put the lives of those bishops in danger.

At this point I would say their validity is questionable at best.

 

[Digitonomy]

Validity would be questionable. Not every priest and bishop have been validly ordained. There are stories of Catholic bishops forced by the government to ordain their bishops and priests. But if priests were coerced into performing a Sacrament, one would have to ask the validity of their intention to ordain…
At this point I would say their validity is questionable at best.

My understanding is that rebel priests and bishops known to be loyal to Rome were rounded up mainly as window dressing at such ordinations. In this way they were forced to be complicit, and the ceremony avoided the appearance of a split or boycott.

But it’s not as though President Hu is personally staging the events and picking out those to be ordained. The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association is doing all of that, and the intent of its bishops is all that’s necessary, assuming they are properly ordained - I don’t think there’s much evidence otherwise, and the Vatican has reconciled with many such Chinese bishops and priests in the past. While there may be a small amount of doubt, the ordinations are very likely valid, unless you are proposing that a single unwilling bishop with contrary intent can veto the proper intent of other bishops at an ordination. That would be an interesting but novel approach to Catholic doctrine.

 

[ConstantineTG]

My understanding is that rebel priests and bishops known to be loyal to Rome were rounded up mainly as window dressing at such ordinations. In this way they were forced to be complicit, and the ceremony avoided the appearance of a split or boycott.

But it’s not as though President Hu is personally staging the events and picking out those to be ordained. The Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association is doing all of that, and the intent of its bishops is all that’s necessary, assuming they are properly ordained - I don’t think there’s much evidence otherwise, and the Vatican has reconciled with many such Chinese bishops and priests in the past. While there may be a small amount of doubt, the ordinations are very likely valid, unless you are proposing that a single unwilling bishop with contrary intent can veto the proper intent of other bishops at an ordination. That would be an interesting but novel approach to Catholic doctrine.

Well, I do know that there are some priests and bishops who are secretly loyal to the Vatican. That is why I said that validity is questionable. We are not sure if the priest we is one of such or one who is invalidly ordained.

I still think that any coerced ordination is invalid.

 

[Digitonomy]

Well, I do know that there are some priests and bishops who are secretly loyal to the Vatican. That is why I said that validity is questionable. We are not sure if the priest we is one of such or one who is invalidly ordained.

I’m not sure who or what you are referring to by “the priest.” I was talking about ordination, which necessarily involves bishops.

ConstantineTG:

I still think that any coerced ordination is invalid.

Are you suggesting that if two bishops freely celebrate with proper intent an ordination of a priest or bishop, that the ordination is invalid if there happens to be a third bishop who was coerced into going through the motions?

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I know bishops ordained without the permission of the Holy See are illicitly ordained. Are their ordinations, without apostolic mandate, valid or invalid?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I know bishops ordained without the permission of the Holy See are illicitly ordained. Are their ordinations, without apostolic mandate, valid or invalid?

Valid, assuming all the elements are there. ConstintineTG has expressed the opinion that coerced ordinations are probably invalid because of what he presumes would be a lack of intent to ordain, but as long as at least one of the bishops intended to ordain I would assume the ordination would still be valid.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m not sure who or what you are referring to by “the priest.” I was talking about ordination, which necessarily involves bishops.

And who gets ordained? Bishops don’t ordain bishops only

Are you suggesting that if two bishops freely celebrate with proper intent an ordination of a priest or bishop, that the ordination is invalid if there happens to be a third bishop who was coerced into going through the motions?

Am I? Can you point to where in this thread did I remotely suggest that?

 

[Digitonomy]

And who gets ordained? Bishops don’t ordain bishops only

In that case, I must have misunderstood - I didn’t think anyone was suggesting that the clerics being ordained were being dragged unwillingly into the church for their own ordination.

ConstantineTG:

Am I? Can you point to where in this thread did I remotely suggest that?

I wrote

Digitonomy:

the ordinations are very likely valid, unless you are proposing that a single unwilling bishop with contrary intent can veto the proper intent of other bishops at an ordination.

To which you replied (emphasis mine):

ConstantineTG:

I still think that any coerced ordination is invalid.

Sounded to me like you were reaffirming and broadening your original statement to include the coerced ordination that I described.

But you were a little vague in defining your argument and specifically what statements I made that you were replying to, so I asked to be sure.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Regarding priests, I doubt the CPA would want a man who wasn’t already on board with them be ordained a priest, so why would they force anyone to get ordained? And even if someone was forced to be ordained, why would this invalidate the sacrament? The intent to ordain to a sacrificial priesthood has to be there for the ordaining bishop, but there was at least one man forced to be ordained in the patristic era that I know of and as far as I know his ordination was recognized as valid afterwards, and I know of nothing in the theology of Holy Orders that would make the internal disposition of the man being ordained relevant to the validity of the sacrament.

 

[SMHW]

Ack!!!

I can’t figure out what you guys mean! Or even if you know what you mean! As a result it sounds as if you are trying to to be confusing. (I’d like to think you aren’t trying to be.)

I just know that your posts include phrases such as “their ordinations” and that those posts sometimes use the word “their” to refer to the men who are conferring orders and other times to the men who have orders conferred on them.

If you refer to a “bishop’s ordination(s)” it would be nice to know if you are referring to the event whereby he (allegedly) became a bishop or an event whereby he attempts to ordain a candidate to the diaconate, priesthood, or episcopacy.